Honda CB500F .... oil level

Discussion in 'Honda Big Bikes Thailand' started by Changnoi1, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    I just bought a Honda CB500F and it has 700 km done now. Fun bike.

    But this morning I checked the oil .... first started the bike, did even ride with a block, put the bike straight .... and the oil is just touching the minimum level!
    Anyone has this problem also?

    I have a photo of it but it seems not possible to put that here without having it already somewhere else on internet.
     
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  3. Ian Bungy

    Ian Bungy Ol'Timer

  4. Koala

    Koala Member

    There is a large difference between cold and hot measures of your oil level. It should be measured hot (well, warm at least) and be about half way up the oil window. A little higher/lower is not a problem. Just not overfull (and not empty either, of course).
     
  5. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    I checked in the morning (cold engine) but first had the motor running for a few minutes, then waited a few minutes. Level was barely minimum.
    Then I did ride around the block, waited a few minutes and checked again. Still just over the minimum.
    Then I waited about 10 or 15 minutes and surprise ... the level had gone up. Still remarkably under the half way up.

    So I did ride to the local Honda dealer that is also selling the CBR250. That was a 10 minute ride and 5 minute wait. Again surprise as the level was now almost half way up.
    We added a little bit oil (from a new can and free of charge) and now the level is just above half way up. That seems ok for me.

    And the little bit usage at break-in period (now 700 km on the clock) also seems ok to me.

    Lesson learned : It takes a long time before all the oil comes down and it takes more as just a engine move to spread the oil.
     
  6. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    There is a lot of anectdotal evidence in UK and from several owners in Pattaya are that riders who really trash the new 500s find that oil pressure is forcing large losses through the breather system to the extent that up to 1 L per 2000km needs to be topped up , the oil is not getting burned off past the rings or valves as examination of exhaust systems shows no oil or excess carbon build up ....no visible oil leaks , the only place for the oil to go is out the breather ,,, and dribbles from that point on several bikes seem to confirm the theory ,, I have been shown 2 new 500 models an F & X both had drips from the breather after a long hard ride .
     
  7. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    Thanks for the idea Monsterman ..... I was thinking also that oil has to go somewhere. Checked the exhaust and that is neat & clean and indeed no visible oil leaks.
    I think I do not trash the bike, at least not until now as I have not been over the 6000rpm (I think).

    Now a stupid question ... where do I look for the breather?
     
  8. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer

    ^ Right. I usually check in the morning after the bike has been sitting all night.

    The oil is in the crankcase and the level should be close to the upper mark.
     
  9. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    May I advice all owners of CB500X/F and CBR500 to check their oil level regularly (especially the models with "new" engine sold since about 2 months) as there seems to be something wrong here. I just filled mine up with 0.8 litre at about 4300 km. First service-check done at about 1000 km so that is is after only 3300 km riding.

    No leaking to be found anywhere. Exhaust was was a bit greasy inside.

    Will update as soon as facts are proven.
     
  10. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    Short update to the low oil level on my CB500F

    1. This morning the oil was still at the same level as yesterday (not been riding)
    2. Honda Big Wing did send a mechanic to check the bike
    3. No external leaking found, although the seal/o-ring behind the front sprocket was at suspect
    4. OEM exhaust (used for 4300 km) is rather dirty
    5. 100cc oil has been added and level is now at 3/4 (what I think is normal)
    6. That means 900cc oil was added (that means that 900cc oil has gone in 3300 km riding)
    7. Draining bolt and oil filter has been checked
    8. Crankcase breather is clean
    9. Bike will be transported to Bangkok for full check-up
     
  11. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    I thought you installed an aftermarket exhaust?

    The oil had to go somewhere, or, is it possible that the bike was underfilled at last service and you just noticed it?

    Very unusual for a nearly new engine to burn that much oil in such a short distance...
     
  12. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    Tony, I installed the after-market slip-on on 22 Dec and did not rice much since then (maybe 35 - 50 km), so the most of the km's I did ride was with the OEM exhaust

    Yes, of course it is theoretically possible that it was under-filled. But first of all I trust the mechanics of HBW, I saw 3 bottles of 1 litre oil, I was given the remainder oil and I checked the oil-level before leaving the shop.

    Indeed the oil has to go somewhere .... 900cc in 3300 km not nothing. Luckily on 2700cc I do not think it will have damaged the engine. It would be interesting to see the spark-plugs, because I think burning is the only option (although I do not see smoke). I think it could have something to do with the fact that they changed some engine settings so they do not need the valve-check at the first service-check anymore.

    Some people think it could have something to do with the aftermarket exhaust (slip-on only the cat is still there). But I do not believe a aftermarket exhaust can influence the engine to make it losing oil.

    One thing I find weird, my OEM exhaust is smelling very bad. Like there is something rotting in it. Like rotten eggs.
     
  13. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    The smell of rotten eggs is sulphur... I wonder if you somehow got some high sulphur agricultural diesel in your fuel system? Cross contamination of underground fuel tanks is not uncommon... That still would not explain the oil loss tho... Usually putting diesel into a gasoline engine just results in an engine that wont run. but mixing the two fuels can result in serious engine damage. Normally the engine damage that results from putting diesel into a gasoline engine is catastrophic and unmistakable.
     
  14. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    I always get gasoline at "respectable" gasoline stations and always pay attention to what is happening, but you never know what is in the gasoline tanks. But I never had any engine problems. Always riding smooth. The exhaust is 10 days after being removed still smelling bad. Actually I started to smell that when I took it of and put it in storage. Maybe some ching-choks are died in it while in stock?
     
  15. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    So back to the facts again.

    My motorbike is at the moment at Honda Big Wing Udon Thani, although promised that it would be transported to Bangkok asap. But HBW Udon says that AP Honda wants to do them some test first.

    1. First test is putting back the OEM exhaust and putting a white paper behind the exhaust. According to AP Honda "normal"
    2. Second test a 100 km test ride .... what resulted in a "noticeable lose of oil". But according to AP Honda with in the specifications "normal".
    3. Third test is now being done (on my request) : Valve-settings. But no result yet.

    I also requested to check the cool-fluid. As theoretically oil could leak into the cool-fluid and you would never notice the leaking

    So losing 900cc oil in 3300 is also normal? That is a question I did ask today to a vary of people of AP Honda resulting in the promise that next week people from the Honda factory will come to Khon Kaen to install some new parts. Re-inversing the change made to prevent the 1000 km valve-settings check?
     
  16. DavidFL

    DavidFL Administrator Staff Member

    What brand of oil are you using?
     
  17. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    The 1000 km service check has been done by Honda Big Wing in Udon and they used Honda G3 10w30 100% Synthetic. That is the only time oil was "used" to replace. At 4300 km first 800cc was added by the Honda dealer in KK. Also 10w30 and also 100% Synthetic but and also a Honda brand-name but not G3. Then the next day another 100cc was added and was again G3 from Honda (done by a mechanic from Honda Big Wing Udon).

    But I also started to think that although I toughed in the beginning I had a low oil-level (at 700 km) that was my mistake due to wrong way of reading the oil-level. So actually until the 1000 km service check I did not have any oil problem. You could think that the oil problem started after the change of oil. Oil too thin, what makes the engine too hot, what makes oil burning? Just thinking, I am not a engineer. Of course also after the 1000 km service check I started to ride a bit faster and at a bit higher rpm. But as said I am not a racer-type so all far within the limit.

    Do you believe in overheating from the engine due to a after-market muffler?
    Could a wrong valve-setting create oil burning? Could that damage the catalytic converter? (this I find my OEM exhaust smelling to rotten eggs)
     
  18. Eddie The Eagle

    Eddie The Eagle Ol'Timer

    Running in a new engine using 100% Synthetic ??? .... I believe thats a No No !!
     
  19. KenYam

    KenYam Ol'Timer

    Changnoi1 very interesting story please keep us informed of outcome.
    I am not familiar with this bike or engine but offer some ideas to consider.
    Does the engine oil vent have a excessive discharge?
    What is the recommended Honda oil 10-30w or 10-40w ?
    100% synthetic oil should be Ok but if concerned use normal mineral oil just to cross it off your list of possibilities.
    Smell from exhaust could be cooking of the catalyst converter, this can happen if something comes adrift inside and restricts flow, it will glow bright orange.
    Cant explain smell if you have fitted an aftermarket muffler unless Cat Converter is before new muffler.
    Last but least faulty engine valves or piston rings.
    Good luck, If no joy from your local Honda dealer insist on Bangkok Honda involvement. They will be keen as newish model for Honda.
    Ken F
     
  20. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    ^Quite true that. The reason you use regular mineral oil in a new engine is because the cylinder needs to wear the piston rings to achieve a proper seal. If you use synthetic oil this critical part of engine break in will not happen. If your piston rings do not make a good seal you will burn oil.
     
  21. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    Of course the engine was running-in with the standard (from factory) oil and AFTER running-in at 1000 km the oil was totally replaced with new oil from the Honda Big Wing dealer. They recommended their own brand-name what I think is called G3 and that is 10w30 and 100% synthetic. Sold in cans of 1 liter.

    The Cat Converter is before the muffler (I have never seen a cat converter after a muffler). Indeed I remember that rotten egg smell from long time ago at Cat Converters on cars. But that would only happen at cold start in the winter and would be gone within 5 or 10 min.

    What I myself wonder .... could you burn 900cc in 3300 km and not notice it? Could the burning be so minimal that you do not see it? Could the Cat Converter be glogged?
     
  22. Lakota

    Lakota Ol'Timer

    I have a CB500X. The Oil from the factory I suspect is mineral Oil. I changed to the G3 synthetic at 1K. just before the 6K service I noticed no Oil in the window so I topped up with half a litre I had spare. I was a bit concerned. The Oil was again changed at 6K with G3 Synthetic. I'm now on 10K and just checked the window and its spot on. No Oil used this time. So , maybe it's due to the bedding in process or something. Mine is one of the early models with the 1K valve check which wasn't actually done, but thats another story.
     
  23. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    The current status is that my motorbike is still at Honda Big Wing Udon Thani (and looking at Bangkok I think that is a good idea).

    New parts have been ordered and will arrive today (Monday)
    A mechanic from Honda Factory will come to Udon Thani to replace the parts (complete cylinder head & cover) and test the motorbike

    If all goes well I will be rolling again next weekend. What I have learned is that AP Honda & Honda Big Wing Bangkok are very poor in communicating with customers (to say it polite) and that the Honda Call Center is just like any call center total useless and that contacting AP Honda be email is totally useless (both in Thai or English).

    What I also have learned that there are at least 2 known reasons for leaking oil at SOME of the engines of the new CB500 series
    1. At the rocker shaft (due to not correctly fastening the cover of the rocker shaft)
    2. At the oil seal behind the front sprocket (damaged at installation?)
    Honda is aware of this problems and will check all bikes for it at pre-sale, both problems are easy to fix.
     
  24. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    I seem to recall there were similar problems with the new Honda 250's...

    Hope they can get you sorted out and back on the road soon!
     
  25. Changnoi1

    Changnoi1 Ol'Timer

    The current status is that the problem is probably solved by replacement of the Cylinder-head-cover. My bike will be brought home today.

    The cylinder-head-cover is not only a cover but also a part of the emission-control system where 2 small "pipe's" go thru the cylinder-head area and connect to the cylinder-head-cover. Out-of-specifications made cylinder-head-cover makes oil leaking and be pressed out of the exhaust-pipe (could as well be pressed out of the intake). In these 2 small "pipe's" was clearly visible a build up of "dust" (sorry do not know how to call it). Although I never really did see smoke from the exhaust pipe, but now comparing my exhaust pipe with that of other used CB500X my exhaust was very dirty inside. Yes, I did oversee the work done. Interesting to see how much work it is to get to the cylinder-head-cover. Same work for the Valve-settings check. And even more work to get to the air-filter. Valve-settings have been checked and within spec's. Spark plugs were a little bit dirty. Air-filter was clean as was the air-intake section. Oil has been replaced by standard oil (10w30 4T)

    And indeed Tony it seems that this problem has been reported also with CBR250 (although AP Honda says "Don't know"). So although the problem is probably solved I am very disappointment-ed in the way Honda Big Wing and AP Honda have handled this. In first case totally ignoring that there is a problem and saying it is with in spec. Well the spec's are a "Red-line test" of 20 hours (let the bike run 8500 rpm for 20 hours and then check the oil consumption) what only shows you should not ride a 24-hours "Le Mans" with a CB500 but of course it is in no relation to normal riding style. The second excuse was the aftermarket muffler, but after I told them I only used that 50 km that was never mentioned again. And another excuse was riding many hours in 1 day (long distance). But my biggest disappointment is the fact that they try to total block customers to get in contact with AP Honda (Honda Big Wing = AP Honda = Honda Factory Thailand).
     
  26. DaRider

    DaRider Ol'Timer

    ^
    Disconcerting story about the service indeed. It seems to become more and more of standard behavior everywhere (and i mean not only in LOS). Deny that there is any kind of problem whatsoever, or blame it on anything else, for as long as possible until there is no way around the fact, and then fix it...

    Anyway, glad it seems to be sorted out, and i hope you get to enjoy your ride A LOT!!

    /
     

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