Chinese MC makers moving upmarket

Discussion in 'General Discussion / News / Information' started by KZ25, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer


    The above Chinese bike is obviously a copy of the 650 Ninja, and as the article points out, it has happened before that companies of one country steal the designs of companies from another country. Seems like it's not enough for the Chinese to produce bikes under 250cc, now they are moving to take a bite out of the bigger bike market.
    Personally I stay away from anything made in China no matter how good the price tag looks - you get what you pay for, and sometimes you get what you didn't want at all.
    Good article here on the kneeslider:
    What's your take on these new bikes?
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  3. Ian Bungy

    Ian Bungy Ol'Timer

    On the Link You sent I would say that the CF Moto Bike actually looks a bit better than the ER6? A bit like a KTM Duke really? The Touring Version Looks Way Better than the Ninja! More like a Mini FJ1300? CFMoto is a Huge Company and Chinese Products are getting better as the Years clock By, You may well be Surprised at what they can do in the Future and their Quality?
    Like an Old Guy said to Me Years ago, "I would Never Buy a Japanese Car". He was appalled when I Told Him the Ford Laser He was Driving was actually Produced By Mazda in Partnership with Ford and was in fact a Japanese Car!!! The Future will tell?
  4. Franz

    Franz Ol'Timer

    Always been working for European companies who put a lot of effort and money into R&D, this is the main reason that I do not buy anything copied from the competition, especially I stay away from everything 'made in Ching-chang-chung' as most of it is still crap. Also some korean companies won't get my money.
    Surely they will improve with the time, but starting with stealing others ideas is not my idea of business. But this is only my opinion; have bought a lot from chinese companies in previous employments and NOTHING survived the first 2 years of use, all gone now to be melted back into steel in a local Electric Arc Furnace as scrap. Franz
  5. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer

    I have to admit that the pictures look good - at least design-wise the Chinese are catching up. But that is only what meets the eye, and it is copied. Question is, how does the bike handle, is it a satisfying ride? Does the sleek-looking fairing rattle or lose color and go brittle within a year? Does the engine hold up, does the clutch shift effortlessly, do the electrics function? Will it start tomorrow morning or will the battery be dead and the fuel on the ground because the cheap rubber hoses have been eaten by the gasoline?
    A motorcycle is more than a frame, an engine and wheels. Ask a Ducati owner, a Harley or a Triumph rider. Why do they love their bikes? Because they are fun to ride, because they have character, because they are status symbols.
    The Chinese are offering cheap copies and I bet they can't give their owners what a quality motorcycle can which has been developed by professionals who have been working for a company that has been building motorcycles for several decades.
    I've heard the argument before that people didn't trust anything Japanese and that the Chinese will simply follow their lead. But don't forget that the Chinese are no Japanese. I lived in Japan and was very impressed with the Japanese; I've also dealt with the Chinese and am not interested in visiting their country, to say the least.
    To successfully build and market vehicles (and other products) you have to have a certain mindset. Actually Germans and Japanese are quite similar in many ways. Hard working, organized, precise, reliable, using sound logic and intelligence, very serious and compassionate about what they are doing, just to name a few character traits. No surprise that they are able to build the most dependable engines in the world.
    Chinese are different, and I don't think that they will ever be able to build anything close to a Porsche, a Mercedes Benz, an Aston Martin, a Cadillac, a Lamborghini, a Moto Guzzi, a Norton, a BMW, or even a Honda. What they will be able to do is build cheap copies that rattle, shake and fall apart and are no fun to ride. Things may improve in the next ten, twenty years and I may buy Chinese telephones, computers or washing machines, but surely no motorcycle!
  6. Ian Bungy

    Ian Bungy Ol'Timer

    Franz after all Your Years in Thailand You should be used to People Copying and Stealing Ideas!!! Everything I have done since arriving in Thailand has been Copied by both the Thai's and Farangs! And that doesn't impress me!!! Good thing is None of them have done it Better and most don't Last so I Win! They are the Sad Losers, Always were and always will be! I also have some other Choice Words for them but can't say them on a Public Forum!!!
    There are a Lot of very Sad People around who can't think of an Original Idea themselves or lack such self confidence so have to spend their time Wishing they were someone else! As much as is said about the Chinese i doubt they are as Bad as Portrait, Definitely not so much copying going on now as in the Past? On the Other Hand look at the New Triumph Adventure Range? Is there any Doubt that their Inspiration came from BMW? I would say You could call that Copying? And Just about every Bike Manufacturer has tried to make a Harley Davidson Copy at some stage!!! Maybe the Chinese are just using others for Inspiration?!!
  7. nikster

    nikster Ol'Timer

    Easy just look what Chinese bike manufacturers are making right now and take it on merit: It's all garbage.

    Maybe in 10 years it will be better, maybe not but not sure why it would matter at all right now. Personally when it comes to vehicles I think it's much more likely that all the big manufacturers will produce in China and the Chinese copy brands will be just as irrelevant as they're now. And Chinese firms will buy a few more brands and those will also continue to do well. Land Rover, Volvo, are already Chinese owned, maybe others too? I don't see the market for the copy brands.

    One thing that always puzzles me is the price argument. In a global economy companies shift manufacturing to where it's cheapest, and best. This place is now China for almost all manufactured goods. That also means a new Chinese manufacturer has very little or no price advantage over the competition to start out with. They're producing in "cheap labor" China, but... so is everyone else! So if they make a bike for half as much, guess what, you'll get half as much bike. That's if you're lucky.
  8. Franz

    Franz Ol'Timer

    Ian, not surprised, just avoiding any copycat company and crap one gets from there...........

    Nik, actually did my last benchmarking between chinese and thai manufactoring in 2009, there was no price advantage concerning chinese labour anymore. China has become at that time already more expensive than the Thai operations. Quality wise, well by then the Thai operators were much much more reliable and willing to stick to procedures whereas the chinese ones were stubborn as before and wanted to do everything 'their farmer' way even though the owner was a foreign company. Only real advantage for chinese companies is that they don't apply IAS (International Accounting Standards) as all 'western' companies do and are not burdened by some expenses, for their way of calculating they only use 'rawmaterials/components, payroll, margins, energy, taxes and the like'; we put into accounting things such as Depreciation, R&D, ..... which makes us seem uncompetitive in the end.
    I am actually buying as much as Thai manufactored goods as I can as I trust the Thai manufactoring side, if not available I buy 'european/japanese products' but stay away from that chinese crap, although some you can't avoid such as mobiles.........
    Cheers, Franz
  9. crs

    crs Member

    Does anyone know of a CFMOTO dealer in Thailand?
  10. daewoo

    daewoo Ol'Timer

    Actually these bikes are on sale (CF Moto) in Australia, for about $Au6,000 (THB 190K), compared to $Au9,000 for an ER6N, and $Au7,000 for a (Korean) Hyosung GT650.

    At 2/3 of the Kwaka price, they are attractive to price sensitive, young, learner riders... if the Hyo reliability is anything to go buy, they will struggle...

    The CF Moto bikes haven't been panned in the motorcycle media, the way one would expect, but I wouldn't exactly say the media is exactly impartial...

    Remember Ducati bikes built for export to the capitalist pigs in The US were often deliberately sabotaged by the socialist workers in the factories in Italy, but that hasn't stopped the company succeeding...

    After working for a Chinese company for almost 2 years before I could escape, I fear for what the world will become... they have no sense of right or wrong, in business, in ethics, in the way they treat their workers, in the way they treat their customers...

    The one thing that will work in the rest of the worlds favour is that quality is of no importance to Chinese, and their factories are set up to serve the 1.6billion (real figure, not published figure) domestic market. The Chinese mentality is about showing off what they have purchased. If it is cheap and crap, and fails immediately, they can purchase again and show off sooner...

    Especially for non-commodity items like bikes, a lot of the purchase decision is emotional, not rational... hopefully that alone will stop Chinese shite making big inroads in other markets...

  11. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    i work in the offshore industry , any Chinese equipment or ships we use are always of terrible quality , even new ones are dirty , noisy and unreliable , was on 2 brand new £60m vessels this year both needed £35m refits in UK only 4 months after delivery from china , cabins had noise levels 0f 95db (illegal) funnels and ventilation systems did not work the crane snapped in half at less than half its rated load of 600 tons , when the covers were taken of the walls and under deck access , they were full of garbage and debris from construction , also the ships could not hold DP station ecven in moderate seas

    the galley equipment kept failing, the toilets and showers all broke it was amazing these ships were wrecks . thats without mentioning the electrical system or even the workshops that had no tools in them ????

    Chinese quality is crap and its unlikely to improve in my opinion .
  12. jimbobs

    jimbobs Ol'Timer

    wow really that bad? my mates just bought a quad bike in the uk to get to work, some chinese thing for 1500 quid new, wouldnt fancy riding that home on a frosty dark winters night,,Monsterman thats unbelievable that a 60m vessel could be such a dog after only 4months,,,,what a rip off ha ha
  13. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    the company ordered 4 ships but has cancelled the last 2 they could and SHOULD have had them built in Europe would have cost £90 each and they would not be compromised bits of crap cost would be the same as £60m + refit costs ,, and its not just those vessels its endemic across the industry , Chines pumps rated at 6000psi blowing at only 2800psi ,
    chinese radar that does not work in Fog or rain !!!!!due to moisture causing backscatter ?????
  14. michaels

    michaels Ol'Timer

    Reminds me of a story an ex-colleague told me. He'd bought some sort of floating boat toy made in China for his son. The first thing that happened after he put it in the bathtub with his son was was the toy turned around and sank to the bottom. ;-)

    (Incidentally, both he and I worked a while in China doing R&D for a large MNC European telecom manufacturer; me on the floor and he a bit higher. ;-) My experience was that the engineers there did not get the time to learn and produce things of quality, so mostly a management issue, at least where I worked. Had I not been brought in on a "foreign expert" contract, I would probably have been sacked for lack of productivity before my terms were up, even though I worked quite a bit more than I do in the west.)
  15. jimbobs

    jimbobs Ol'Timer

    I bought a 3 year old mercedes s class in 2007 .part xtd a BMW 2001 740... for it THE MERC was a dog from the day i bought it (on finance i have to say) lost a ****in a lexus LS 430 on a 2004 with more miles on the clock than both cars..
    The beamer was ok .the merc was a horror story all the lads where saying why did you buy that ugly piece of jap toyota crap..
    Now i bought big cars because i had to travel from either Scotland to liverpool or down south and the fuel economy on a run was not much different than a focus (not a diesel i must add)...
    I never changed a ****in bulb on the lexus ok its along way from the Chinese crap they are giving us but European cars are not all that no more..and for tha record i now have a 2004 s80 volvo for when i go the uk.
    But you mentioned Cadillac its an awfull car...i dont want to upset no one but i am not overly impressed with European or american cars no more ...i would sooner have an old saab than a new one...i dont even know where ford are built anymore...
    And ive just bought a Thailand Versys i am going to find out the hard way whether the Thais can build Kawasaki
    Anyway good luck and its only my experience i am commenting on
  16. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    the latest UK motor industry warranty repairs study placed jap makes in the top 5 and mercedes came bottom for reliablity and problems VW and BMW were in the bottom 5 too , german cars overhyped oberated and overpriced

    look at the booming industry in thailand to put lexus ,camry or Cefiro v6 engines into 3-5 year on BMWs and Mercs , its probably about 30% of the premium cars on the road on garage in bangkok does 2 a week and a Thai guy i know in pattaya does several a year .
  17. jimbobs

    jimbobs Ol'Timer

    Being the idiot i am over anything with an engine i am saving up a few dollars every month to buy an e type jag from America..i am working in Mexico...How i will eventually get it to LOS i dont know but it will be a couple of years down the line..i look at the prices there compared to the UK and its frightening..i only have to drive it in my name to Mexico register it at my address for 6 month and pay no import tax to the uk....i would love to have it here but you can not even ship it in parts now and register it ime told....thats why i am looking at bikes for some type of enjoyment...i love my camper vans you dont see them here..there must be some cost effective way for a Brit to have his toys
    Monsterman you love your Dukes it must pain you to pay the prices you do for lovely bikes..
    On a diffrent topic i can get boss VW beetles for buttons in Mexico and you see a few in Isaan how are they here does anyone know?
  18. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer

    I wonder where you got that information. Could you post a link?

    Benz bottom for reliability - I wonder what kind of kind of study that was...
  19. jimbobs

    jimbobs Ol'Timer

    Why do some people always have to question actual events...i went to germany for work with 3 of my freinds in a reliant robin in 1989 it got us there i won a vw beetle in a game of cards and left the 3 wheeler there..the only problem we had with the reliant was it never went over 45 miles an hour or ime sure the piece of shit would have got us back cosr us 80 seems to be the technology and computors that affect reliability now and the japs have got it sewn up..i think the basic engineering is good...vehicles in general have become too clever...i was about 19 at the time and would never take that journey again...we never stopped only for petroland got ripped off by a cloggy for our wages...probably not relevent but mercs beemers etc.let me down i 2005..and cheepo orions.cavaliers xr3s very rearly let me down and cost a fraction of the price
  20. Billy Baht

    Billy Baht Ol'Timer

    I think its just a matter of time until the Chinese begin building quality cars and bikes.

    Time will prove that theory right- or wrong :)
  21. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer

    Seems to me that the report uses statistics like a drunk uses a light post - for support rather than illumination.
    How do you define a "breakdown" in the first year? Looking at warranty claims in the first 12 months is not a very scientific way of judging the reliability of a car. If a fuse or light bulb breaks on my Land Rover or Mercedes I go to have it replaced, under warranty. If I bought a SEAT or a Peugeot or a FIAT I may not even care. If a hose comes off on my luxury car I have it replaced under warranty. On a cheaper car I might get a screwdriver and tighten the hose clamp myself, saves me time. Also cheaper cars have less features, meaning less things to break. Cheap, simple car = fewer features = less warranty claims = better car? I rather sit in a luxurious, comfortable and quiet car which has a couple of minor problems than in a cheap, cheesy, uncomfortable and noisy one which has less minor problems.
    Total engine failures, major repairs within the lifetime of a vehicle would be a better way to judge the overall quality of a car, and the resale value.
    That said I would take a used Lexus over a used Benz anytime.
    I wonder how motorcycle warranty repair statistics look? Are the expensive luxury brand bikes also overrated, overhyped and overpriced compared to the Japanese?
  22. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer

    Don't think so. If the French can't build decent cars why would the Chinese be able to? ;-)
  23. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    It's a sensitive topic but there have been some interesting articles that contrast, for example, the perfectionism of the Japanese vs the pragmatism of the Chinese, or the tendency of Chinese manufacturers to choose speed over quality, ie, the idea that you can make more money by making something cheaply and quickly and selling it in volume, than making a higher quality product more slowly and at greater expense.

    It's not that Chinese manufacturers are incapable of manufacturing quality goods (think Foxconn and the iPhone for an example of top quality Chinese manufacturing).

    China is famous for low quality goods because that's what consumers demand. Why has so much manufacturing gone from western nations to China? Because manufacturing in China is fast and CHEAP. Many (most?) consumers still make their buying decisions based on price over quality, and China supplies that demand.

    Another important consideration that hurts quality is the lack of respect for intellectual property law in China. Firms are loathe to invest in high quality manufacturing because they know that a high quality product will be stolen and copied by the competition.

    These are, of course, huge generalizations, but I think it does help explain why we continue to regard China as primarily a producer of cheap, low quality goods. The world still loves to buy Chinese and the Chinese economy remains robust to I don't see any reason why the Chinese should feel the need to change the status quo.

    Your thoughts?
  24. KZ25

    KZ25 Ol'Timer

    There is a big difference between "goods manufactured in China" and "Chinese products".
    If European or American companies move their factories to China to have their quality products assembled under western supervision by cheap Chinese workers, like most do by now, then those are not Chinese products. Apple's iPhone is a good example; designed by Apple, assembled in China, it's got a sticker on the box that says "Made in China" but it's not a Chinese product.
    Chinese products are designed by Chinese, and that's where the trouble starts. They copy western designs but are not able to improve them like the Japanese did; they are not even able to produce anything comparable to what they copy. Chinese just don't have what it takes, same as the Thais. You could transport a complete modern factory from Japan to China (or Thailand) but the products would never be the same if management and workforce were Chinese (or Thai). It takes foreign management and supervision to produce quality products. Chinese labor lets the companies produce them cheaper so they can stay competitive.
  25. jimbobs

    jimbobs Ol'Timer

    Ok i have been banging the drum for jap vehicles.As i have already stated i have just paid 300,000b for a Thailand made bike...will it be as good as a Jap kwaka..its an old model now and will be replaced soon..but i value you fellas you recon quality has suffered by it being PUT TOGETHER than it would be in Japan...i know this is an old subject but many guys on this forum actually have owned these bikes for a couple of years...Would they trade their Jap built for a new Thai built
    Sorry Guys its a Versys
  26. nikster

    nikster Ol'Timer

    Tony makes a very good point: What China is doing right now is working very well for them - they have no reason to change. That is more true in China today than anywhere - if you have been there recently its a gold rush, there is so much business coming in, so many things happening, that nobody even thinks about changing. Most are too busy adapting / figuring out how to make money and how to keep growing like they have been.

    Another point is that since China is the world's factory, a Chinese company making vehicles has no advantage over a European/japanese/american one - everyone is producing in China. Chinese are not even the best at taking advantage of the Chinese manufacturing miracle as western companies are leading the way in supply chain optimization, again Apple is a great example, no inventory, products delivered world wide direct from Shenzen, and hardware margins that are unheard of.

    Chinese are not at a disadvantage of course but as it is everyone is happily making money on the status quo.

    The switch to electric vehicles will provide another disruption and chance for new players, but it already looks like thats also going to be western r&d leading the way. Those Chinese knock off motorbikes are not going to win over the world...

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