Ducati Thailand say DO NOT USE GASOHOL in New Bikes

Discussion in 'Technical' started by monsterman, Dec 28, 2011.

  1. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    If you buy a new Duacti in Thailand you will be told not to use Gasohol as it will damage the plastic tank ....thats an official statement from main dealer.
    Now it may be that one has to use gasohol sometime as regular 95 and 91 RON octane fuels are not always available but then one is told to fill tank up with regular gas as soon as possible and to store the bike with regular gas and not Gasohol in the tank ....its only 5% in Thailand same as UK not the 10% stuff in USA but thats what the dealers are telling new owners.
     
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  3. Ian Bungy

    Ian Bungy Ol'Timer

    Hell that's Hard to believe as I would have thought most Ducati wouldn't Run very good on 91?
     
  4. brian_bkk

    brian_bkk Ol'Timer

    It almost seems hard to believe.. Be good to get the official word on this along with warranty cover from Ducati.

    Made in Thailand bike for the Thai / ASEAN market has problems with Gasohol..

    I read in the Bangkok post last week that the gov't will phase out 91 Benzine Oct next year. (Of course we know this is only talk and probably wont happen - But)

    Sounds like they need a solution ASAP.

    Cheers
    Brian
     
  5. johngooding

    johngooding Ol'Timer

    I wonder where the 5% information came from. As far as I know Gasohol is 10% alcohol or E20 which is 20% alcohol,or even the 85% alcohol version. I do not believe there is any 5% alcohol containing benzene available in Thailand. Please do correct me if I am wrong.
     
  6. DesmoNut

    DesmoNut Active Member

    I'm a Duke fan of over 35 years duration (early 1970s to 2009) but I'd never buy one in Thailand for various reasons. Must admit, though, I was tempted by the Thai-built Monster but this news has really made me see sense and abandon all thoughts of buying one.

    If this information is true and I HAD bought one of the Thai-built bikes, I'd be after getting my money back from them (fat chance!!) on the grounds that they'd sold me a product when they could be expected to have reasonable knowledge that it'd be unusable in a few years time because of the stated Government intention to phase-out non-gasohol petrol in the very near future - maybe not next year but i'm sure it'll come soon.

    As has been said - "Made in Thailand bike for the Thai / ASEAN market has problems with Gasohol..". Built in Thailand for a market that has publicly stated that non-gasohol fuels are to be phased-out but unable to run reliably on the gasohol fuels that will replace it = TOTALLY STUPID.
     
  7. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    problem started in USA all plastic tanked bikes are afected not just Ducati , list includes BMW, triumph,HD ,KTM,Moto guzzi,Apprillia ,etc etc etc thge answer is to use steel or aluminium and triumph has gone back steel as has HD .Ducati have won a massive court case in USA where some owners have had up to 6 replacement plastic tanks fail due to gasohol warping , no steel replacement owners will get free replacemts of duff plastic for up to 6 years then nought .

    expect lots of indian and chinese made Steel aftermarket tranks soon .
     
  8. Hoghead

    Hoghead Ol'Timer

    Thai Gasohol is 10% hence the name E-10 - same logic for E-20 and E-85

    No E-5 unless you are confused with B-5 Diesel which none of my bikes will run on
     
  9. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    You are correct.

    I don't know where monsterman got that 5% from.

    And I don't believe his other info is correct either as the Thai-made display bikes all have a big E10 compliant sticker on their tanks.

    Which dealer told you this nonsense Monsterman?
     
  10. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    Gasohol in europe & UK is 5% , in Thailand its same as USA 10%, both formulations cause the problem it just takes longer with 5% ethanol and EU wants to increase it to 10% .....

    Tony just beacause there is a big E10 sticker on the tank means zilch ,it only means the bike will run on E10 ,not that the tank wont absorb water from the gasohol and warp over time ,,the tanks are made of the same material that is used in EU and USA so everyone including Ducati know there is an issue .........The new Pattaya dealer is telling all new buyers to use regualar fuel as much as possible and not to store the bikes with gasohol for long periods ,,,,,I have personally seen 7 ducatis in thailand and 4 KTMs with distorted ,warped tanks in the last 2 years and quite a few Ducatis , ktms ,Apprillias in UK , over 25,000 tanks replaced in USA already huge court cases in the US courts as well .

    Acerbis and Ducati do have an unofficial solution in USA which is to coat the interior of the tanks with caswells Epoxy but they wont do it when making the tanks and wont officially endorse it as they would be liable to all costs , but thousands of owners in USA are going that path as it appears to work but it may affect warraties ...yet to be tested in US courts ...

    what i dont understand is that a problem that is worldwide , well documented has rational people burying their heads in the sand ,,,do you believe evrything that big corporations and governments tell you ?????more fool you then.
     
  11. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    I think there are two different issues here- one is the ability of the Ducati tank to resist E10 gasohol, the other is the problem of storing any vehicle with gasohol in the tank.

    Ducati manuals say that the bikes are E10 compliant. If an owner can PROVE that their tank failed due to gasohol, then it's a warranty claim. If Ducati refuses to honor the claim, they end up in court.

    On the flip side, no manufacturer can guarantee that a vehicle stored with gasohol in the tank won't suffer problems as a result of the phase separation that inevitably occurs when gasohol sits in a tank over time. Is a manufacturer responsible for damage that occurs as a result of bad gas?

    I imagine this is a central question in the ongoing litigation over the damaged fuel tanks.
     
  12. FrankT

    FrankT Ol'Timer

    I have been looking at KTM's lately, have to reconsider I guess...
     
  13. feejer

    feejer Ol'Timer

    I think this is exactly right. The primary cause of the moisture induced warpage is during long-term "seasonal" storage of E10 fuels. Heres why. There is a need to use a gas drier when using E10 gasoline. The problem with an ethanol blended gasoline is it can only absorb so much water, up to a content of 0.5 volume percent before it will phase separate. Phase separation occurs when the water reaches the maximum amount that the gasoline blend can dissolve, any additional water will separate from the gasoline. When this happens if you want to remove this additional water you will have to remove this moisture by using a gas drier that contains isopropyl alcohol.

    Some guys try to go cheap and use bulk methanol, but the problem with methyl alcohol is that it will keep the water in your tank from freezing (not an issue in Thailand obviously), but it does nothing in the way of removing the water. Isopropyl(Isopropanol)is the preferred one to use because it will mix with the water which will prevent the freezing and at the same time can move this water through the fuel system to be burned off.

    So I concur that the tanks are E10 compliant when the bike is ridden daily and moisture is not allowed to come out of phase. If you plan to have a fill of fuel in a plastic tank for more than a week or so, then you should be adding an isopropyl additive to bind it up and keep it from settling out. If you plan to store the bike for several months or more, then it is mandatory to add some Sta-bil to the tank and then run the engine to circulate through the system, then drain the tank completely. This will keep the fuel caught up in the pump and FI or carbs fresh and save the tank too.
     
  14. brian_bkk

    brian_bkk Ol'Timer

    Here is an interesting link on Gasohol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures

    * The Tesco chain of supermarkets in the UK have started selling an E5 brand of gasoline marketed as 99 RON super-unleaded. Its selling price is lower than the other two forms of high-octane unleaded on the market, Shell's V-Power (99 RON) and BP's Ultimate (97 RON).
     
  15. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    Sainsbury, morrisons and Asda also sell fuel with 5% ethanol in according to RAC and AA .
     
  16. TonyBKK

    TonyBKK Ol'Timer

    What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
     
  17. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    Thats the Million Dollar question ......,,its probably cost ,already 4 formulas of plastic have been tried and all have failed according to the court case,,,,cost is probably the reason but remember other companies are also affected ..triumph have returned to using steel,
    its estimated that Ducati would go bankrupt if they had to replace 150,000 + tanks with steel ones .they are trying by extended warraty up to 6 years to push the problem into the future
     
  18. feejer

    feejer Ol'Timer

    It seems that motorcycles and their owners are held to a different (lower) legal standard than autos. Ten years ago, the rear drive suddenly failed on my BMW K1200LTC and nearly tossed us off of it after spewing lube all over the rear wheel and tire while underway. I had not heard of the issue until I investigated online and found out it was a common and ongoing problem. BMW kept things very quiet dealing with it on a case by case basis but never issued a recall or admitted that there was any issue with the design. This was their approach even though data was proving that 4-5% of bikes were having failures with no evidence of owner abuse or neglect with regard to maintenance.

    The NTSB (National Transport Safety Board) was informed, but to my knowledge no investigaton was ever taken and no legal review either. Probably because no deaths resulted from it. Even so, can you imagine the public and regulatory outcry if any model of automobile was having catastrophic drivetrain failures at that rate? It would be making headline news and be a PR disaster for the company solely for its POTENTIAL to cause a deadly crash. Especially so if it was later proven that they dragged their feet or tried to cover up the problem.
     
  19. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    So far very few plaintiffs in USA have accepted the verdict , and they have to sign their rights away to get the extra 6 year warranty onm the fuel tanks , so the fight will go on, also Ducati may have pne the court case ''battle '' but may lose the ''war '' of customer confidence in the long run .
    Even if you get 6 years extra warranty on the tank the value of the bike will be reduced and confidence in the product will be damaged its ridiculous but remeber its not only duicati affected they are the tip of the iceberg !!!!!
     
  20. Pgt066

    Pgt066 Ol'Timer

    Fun to see people getting worked up about this who don't even have a Ducati with a plastic tank (Or planning to get one).

    When tires wear out I buy new ones.

    If tank expands, I buy a better one.

    Life is simple
     
  21. LivinLOS

    LivinLOS Ol'Timer

    Tires are a consumable.. I rather hop that tanks dont need to be viewed the same way.

    Sure its not the end of the world, but hardly a good thing for brand confidence.
     
  22. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    Price quoted to me for replacement plastic Ducati tanks in UK is £838.00 thats 42,000baht in UK but its still the same defective plastic
     
  23. monsterman

    monsterman Ol'Timer

    Agree but thats the official ducati price .....word is that aftermarket companies are gearing up to produce steel and ally copies for latest ducati models , expect a rash of tanks next year at about £350-£400 unpainted .
     

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