MOTUL Oil?

[Ian Bungy]

Hi All,
Some Questions if any of you can help answer them about OIL???
I brought a Case of Motul Synthetic Oil 10W40 4T for my Bikes thinking it is Better to Run Synthetic right??? After Running my Pantera's in on standard Oil I serviced them all and Replaced the Oil with the Motul. After the First Trip less than 1000 kms the Oil was Jet Black??? so i replaced it again and went back to the Standard Oil. These were Hard Off Road Kms. I also serviced my Yamaha Raid and used the Same Motul Oil, have done about 1500 kms, very easy Road kms and the Oil is Black again??? I Spoke to Justin last night and His Kawazaki with the same Oil did exactly the same, Turned Black so he replaced it with standard Oil.
Both of us agree though the Bikes Ran Smoother and Quieter (with Less Vibration on the Pantera's) with Motul compared to standard Oil.
1, Is Motul Oil Shit ?
2, Turning Black indicates Overheating so it needs changing right ?
3, Has anyone had similar problems ?
4, Any suggestions on Better Oil more readily avalible?
5,Gypsy Rider uses Mobil 1 5w50 for his KTM's but i have read this is not suited for Bikes and can cause Clutch problems in some cases???
Your Views or Opinions would be welcomed Gentleman.
Cheers Ian.

 

[monsterman]

I use Motul synthetic and Mobil 1 in my Ducati with no problems. are your bikes air or oil cooled are they off road bikes?.Mobil1 works OK in Ducatis because they are dry clutch. but can cause slipping in wet clutch motorcycles.

Motul and Mobil 1 are good oils but in off road bikes which haver regular oil changes you dont need synthetic oil, use a semi synthetic or a good quality mineral oil and change regularly . Thailand is hard on oil due to the high temperaturea and dust in the air.
Change oils here more regularly than Europe.

jerry

 

[mikerust]

Ian,

Have you tried emailing Motul? Sounds weird that the oil would turn black unless it just cleaned out athe accumulation of crap from before.

Try Shell Rimula Ultra 10W-40 (Rotella T in the US) should be available in Chiang Mai.
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html

 

[Ian Bungy]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the Info but i am still none the Wiser? Obvious i am not the only one as it happened to Justin as well? My Motul came from G3 and is 10W-40 which is all he has. I also haven't seen any higher Grades besides Mobil 1 which is a Car Oil? I just brought some Castrol Power 1 Racing Fully Synthetic 4T 10W-40 from Loong Nuad Fa Ham shop as this is the Oil he uses so will try that and see if it goes Black? Hope to get some info somewhere.
Cheers Ian.

 

[Ian Bungy]

Thanks for that Mark. Just out of interest how about this i received?

"A friend in the USA runs a large tire and service center for cars.
About 15 years ago, a rep from one of the major oil companies put on a little demonstration for him.
Using a hotplate and baking dish, he took engine oils and heated them to operating temperature.
The very cheap oil came out of the bottle clear and gold - and stayed that way after heating.
The better quality oils with the addatives turned black immediately!!!"

So what does this mean??? Black is normal or More Expensive is not better??? Over My Head!!! I would like to know though?
Cheers Ian.

 

[monsterman]

The more expensive oils clean the shit out of the engine with degergents and additives thats why they went dark, its not about colour it is temperature and shear resitance of quality oils that count.

 

[Ian Bungy]

None of my Bikes could be Called High Performance but i want the best protection i can so the Engines last as long as possible. If you went for a tour to Laos for instance as Justin did he was there for 1 month or even a ride around Thailand to change your Oil every 500 or even a 1500 kms would be a real Hassle. I am hoping to find an oil something like in NZ where the Oil was fine till the Scheduled Service. The more information and answers i get i am still None the Wiser? Surely 1500 kms isn't past its engine Life? specially easy road kms? Everyone has a different opinion. What is the Best to use for Long Life and Normal use at regular Normal intervals say 3 to 5000 kms. New BMW and Ducati Bikes advertise prolonged service intervals of 10.000 kms, what Oil do they use???
Cheers Ian.

 

[mikerust]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ian Bungy

so the Engines last as long as possible. What is the Best to use for Long Life and Normal use at regular Normal intervals say 3 to 5000 kms. New BMW and Ducati Bikes advertise prolonged service intervals of 10.000 kms, what Oil do they use???
Cheers Ian.

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Ian maybe that article is too much reading for you so here is a precis.

quote:

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Some people should, in my opinion, clearly use a synthetic oil. You should be using a synthetic if:

you routinely start your engine in temperatures under 40°f, 5°c.
you live somewhere where it gets below -35 degrees, and you want to start your car. In this case you must use either Mobil-1 0w-30 or the Canadian 0w-40 Rotella. If you're riding your bike in -40 degrees, I want a picture just before you die.
you leave your vehicle sit unused for months at a time.
you are unable or unwilling to change your oil within 2000 miles.
you have one of these new 4-stroke MX bikes. These MX bikes hold only about one quart of oil, all of them have marginal cooling systems, and if there's a more severe use of an engine than MX, I don't want to be physically present when it happens.

Three synthetics stand out from the rest: Mobil Delvac 1, Mobil-1 SUV and Shell Rotella T Synthetic (Rimula Ultra in Asia)

The additive packages for C (commercial) certification are designed to promote engine life. The additive packages for C rated oils contain extra buffers and detergents to keep the engine clean and free of acids. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic. Traditionally these oils are primarily used in diesel motors, which are very expensive and are expected to last a million miles or more. When an engine rebuild costs $10,000 - $15,000 and puts you out of work for a week or three, you don't mind paying a bit more for your oil. The C certification tests have been largely developed by Mack, Caterpillar, Detroit and Cummins to provide the additives necessary to keep these engines running a long time. The latest commercial certification is CI-4 Plus, which includes extra protection for high temperature high revving motors. Since it's designed for diesel motors, they don't care about no stinkin' catalytic thingies, and CAFE is a place where you get a cup of joe and a donut. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability. The shear stability is exactly what motorcycles need due to running the engine oil through the transmission.

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[monsterman]

On the Ducati Monster list website in the USA is a 300 page thread by a real oil expert called George who designs racing oils , I have been following this thread for 2 years it is very informative.

 

[Azoulay]

Hi Friends,

Just as a complement of information I would like to add that there are only a few of true oil makers in the world, all of them are big oil companises such as SHELL, ESSO, TOTAL...

MOTUL is NOT an oil maker but a blender and a co-packer with limited test and labs capacity.

The strengh of MOTUL is only in marketing and advertising the oil.

I could develop it as someone in my family has a competitive brand (KENOIL) working à façon (co-packing) oil for all the hypermarkets in Europe under their own brands.

Generally these kinds of makers buys oil from big oil companies, add few additives, blend and mix it and then pack it.

Margins are so beautiful that they can advertise quite easily, specially on niche markets such as go-kart, bikes per segment (speed, dirt, cruise bikes) but not so many thing reliable in terms of tests....

I know even such brands who had cars engaged in rallies and races with stickers advertisements on the car body, using an other oil as better and safely performing than their own ones. Isware !

Hope it helps...at least to understand the issue, but NOT to dammage any brands !

 

[Hoghead]

The cal Sc. website says it all and in fact I run Mobil 1 Delvac in everything I own right down to the maids scooter and lawnmower

 

[BignTall]

Mark and Mikerust,

Great info, thanks. I have used synthetic oils since their introduction. Mobil 1 in race car engines and motul in the bikes. I changed the filter and installed Motul oil on my recent KLX. Within 600 KM is was jet black. The bike was not low on oil or overheating. Usually I could change my synthetic oil in the states and it still have a semi golden hue to it. Not sure what caused it to turn black here in Thailand inside 600KM. The shifting quality also dropped as the oil got more miles on it. It seemed to be breaking doown and I'm not sure why. Maybe Motul had a bad batch, not sure, but something seemed amiss.

On my trip to Laos I was hesitant to use the motul and have to change it within 500 km's (both expensive and inefficient with 300-400KM days). I ended up using regular 10-40 and changing it every week.

I was hoping the synthetic oil would allow me more time between changes but for some reason it did not work out this way. I'll give the Royal Purple 20/50 a shot and report the findings.

Once again thanks for beta Mark and Mike.

 

[monsterman]

Dont believe the manufacture's extended oil change intervals 0f 10,000kms if you want your engine and gearbox to last , change at 5-6000kms as oil and filters asre cheap and work very hard .

jerry

 

[feejer]

The Motul turning black is due to its high ester content. Ester basestocks are very good cleaning agents and it was cleaning up the residue from the prior use of dino based lube. After a few changes, it will return to normal service life. There is nothing wrong with the product, it is doing its job. As far as the Delvac 1, I use the Turbo Diesel truck in every motor I own as its exactly the same product for about $2-3 qt less cost here in the states.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... iesel.aspx

 

[monsterman]

Pennzoil gold for diesel pickups gives great results in Harleys here, I reccomend this oil very much for Harleys .have used it for over 10 years and seen its results after opening up the engines , very low wear , it handles the stress as pickups with diesel engines run hotter than gasoline engines.

 

[BignTall]

We have a winner!!!! The bells ring for Feejer!!!

Thanks for the answer Feejer. Yep I was using the high end ester based Motul. Not sure about Ian. It seems I must give the Motul another go and give it a few changes to rid the motor of the muck it’s cleaning off. As Mark states it’s a decent product, I just couldn't figure out what was going on with the fall off in both color and shifting quality

It makes sense that the shifting action would deteriorate the ester in the oil would scour more of the muck from the motor and suspend it in the oil, thereby affecting the shifting qualities.

 

[GypsyRider]

Feeler came to the same conclusion that my friend Alain mentioned to Ian Bungy and me when we had lunch at the X-Centre last saturday. Pure (ester-based) synthetic oils act like a strong detergent and their cleansing effect right after you've changed from dino oil to synthetic oil makes it turn black. So a second oil change should be followed pretty soon after the first one, in order to flush out the dino remains suspended in the synthetic oil.

As for the 'clutch-slip' problem possibly caused when using fully synthetic mobil 1 in bike engines, I think it is more a case of avoiding possible cases of product liability. I have used it for years in all kinds of bikes, and never had a single instance of clutch slip, confirming the argument that Mobil just wants to cover its corporate ass on this issue.

My buddy Gaspipe in the US owns over 30 bikes, ranging from a Yamaha-powered Bimota to a fleet of Beemers, Jap sports bikes, KTMs and Huskies and uses Mobil 1 in all of them. Never had a clutch slip on him. So I'd be surprised if Ian's Chinese Pantera XR230's and TTR250 have enough power to make the clutch slip with Mobil 1, unless the clutch plates are worn out or the clutch spring pressure is too weak by design. In that case, the clutch might indeed start slipping sooner with Mobil 1, but would in the end slip anyway with any other oil.

IMO Motul and Mobil 1 are equally good oils, and my preference for using Mobil 1 is based on the fact that you can buy it in 4 or 5 liter size containers at oil distributors, and thus get a better deal than the 1 liter Motul containers that you find in most bike shops.

 

[michaels]

Where can this be bought in Chiang Mai?

Thanks,

 

[Ian Bungy]

Hi again All,
Thanks to Feejer for telling me something that makes Sense and can understand. I will have to Start again as my Pantera's are all back to Normal Mobil 4T. Might get some Mobil 1 and Try acouple on that before i do the Yamaha. Thanks to everyone for their Imput.
Cheers Ian.

 

[mikerust]

More oil stuff.

http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=9

 

[mikerust]

Just borrowed a mate van which he normally uses to transport his bike to and from Bira. In the back were two bottles of Shell Advance Ultra so obvously that is available here in LOS.

I haven't tried it as my bike is 2T.

On recommendation from my engine builder I have been using Advance VSX 2T.

Sorry to keep harping on about Shell but it is readily available as there are Shell stations all over LOS.

It started for me with my bike and on another forum where the guys were waxing lyrical about Rotella (Rimula).

 

[mikerust]

Ok my last post on this oil thing. Wasting far too many brain cells on it.[}] Over to you Ian if you want to persue this further.

Got this just now from Jason at Motul Singapore

quote:

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Dear sir,

Your email has been re-directed to us. We thank you for your feed back on
your experience of using Motul oil.

There are a few possibilities could have happened here. These are:
• Possibility of modern high detergent additives come into contact
with ”ashless” detergent additives. This will result in oil turn black
• Possibility of carbon has being build up previously, by using a high
detergent oil, it will helps to clean up the carbon resulting the oil being
black.
• By the fact that your bike runs smoother and quieter, the
possibility of oil being break down is unlikely.

We need to establish a few things here and may be you could help us.

• What brand and grade of standard oil you are using
• The age of your bike
• Does the oil has burnt smell
• Observation of operating temperature. Is it normal or on the extreme
high?

Not do we have heard of the oil has change jet black after using. However,
it is normal for the oil to turn black or brownish

I have checked, in Thailand, for Motul synthetic oil grades available for 4T
engine oil are;
• 300V 10W/40 4T Factory Line
• 300V 15W/50 Factory Line
• Hi-Tech 100 4T 10W/40

The difference is for 300V 10W/40 4T Factory Line and 300V 15W/50 4T Factory
Line are formulate with ester base oil and is developed for serve operating
conditions for racing bike. These are a much better oil when compare to
other synthetic oil that is available in the market. It has good thermal and
oxidation stability and can withstand higher operating temperature. We
strongly recommend you to try these grades, 300V series.

First, you need to know development for car and motorcycle engine oil is
different. Despite both are 4 stroke engine in principle of combustion, the
driveline is totally different. The different is for car driveline, the
clutch or automatic transmission gears are outside the engine and are
completely separate units. In contrast, for motorcycle, the clutch and gears
is within the engine compartment, i.e. the gear and clutch will share the
same oil as engine oil. However, in principle the function requirement for
clutch and engine is different. For clutch, its function needs friction to
hold the frictional plate together to transmit power. However, in contrast,
the engine function requires having less friction so that the piston can
deliver more power. That is the reason why when you use car engine oil in
your bike, you may find clutch slippage problems because the oil may contain
friction modifier, i.e. it helps to make the oil smoother. Thus it is
strongly recommended to use oil that is dedicated and develop for
motorcycle.

We hope this information is useful and we are able to answer some of your
questions. Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to
contact us.

Thanks and regards

Jason Yip

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He can be reached at [email protected]

 

[Ian Bungy]

Thanks for the Info and Effort you have put in Mike. I would like to use the 15W/50 if i could get it here so if anyone knows where i can get it in Chiang Mai please let me know? I intend to use the Mobil 1 5w/50 in all my other Engines. I was going to Try it in my Bikes as well but a bit unsure yet again with this Clutch Slip worry?
Cheers Ian.

 

[feejer]

I dont know if I would use such a wide vis range auto oil (5W/50)in a bike that has integral gearbox/wet clutch. Gears are notorious oil shearing buggers and best to use a bike specific oil due to that.

Interesting study here http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g2156.pdf explaining some of the reasons why. Mostly USA oils, but Motul came in a close 2nd place, just expensive as hell. The Amsoil is about $8.50 US/qt. here and is top notch stuff if you can get it.

 

[JohhnyE]

Unless the Mobil 1 is the bike specific oil you are buying I would avoid it in high HP bikes.
Agree that Diesel oils (Rotella,Penzoil) are great in Harleys - but they have separate Gear Oils and don't use the engine oils for clutch or gear box. I used Motul 15W/50 semi synth in my Harley before I sold it. Never used any oil between changes.
In my sports bikes I have been using only Castrol for years. It was R4 5W/40 and now It's Power 1 10W/40. Never had a problem - oil remains "clean" and none of the bikes uses any oil between changes. A note of interest - Castrol specifically states that using a fully synth oil should only be done after the bike has completed at least 10,00km as that oil prevents the engine parts from fully beddding in.
If you want or need a fully synthetic oil in Thailand Castrol Power 1 is the go IMHO. And Castrol is an oil company,not a "blender."
In any case with modern high tech engines a bike specific oil is best.