Fuel problems 95 -gasohol!!!!!!

E3L0

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And stop the coppers outside On Nut Tesco from taking x00B off me every time I go past.
 

DavidFL

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Between Chiang Mai & Chiang Rai, there's 95 non-gasohol available at the Cosmo petrol station, right (east) side of R118, just south of Wiang Pa Pao & north of the R1150 turn off. This petrol station is convenient as it is roughly half-way between the two towns.
 

monsterman

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When i run my non EFI Honda 125 wave on gasohol95 the fuel consumption is 25% worse so no savings for me , the bike is not as smooth either.

jerry
 

monsterman

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I put a few litres of gasohol 95 in the Ducati yesterday and the bike ran OK but there was more vibration and a bit less power and response the exhaust note was a bit flatter too.When i refilled with regular 95 the machine was better a little smoother and harder edge to the sound and a bit more power.
 

HIKO

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Nov 7, 2005
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HI MONSTERMAN.

I am sure you don't need any Dyno for your Ducati. You seem to have a ear more accurate than any Dyno and the touch in your right hand is more sensitive than any computer attached to a Dyno.

Pls keep your emotions and feelings about your bike and the fuel you use separated from the facts. Nobody can hear the difference in sound, the changes in acceleration, the increase or decrease of power before and after spilling a few litres of Gasohol in the tank.

Somebody may believe you so keep to the facts.

HIKO

Ps No hard feelings
 

DavidFL

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In LOEI
"Regular" 95 Benzine Non gasohol is available at the Mobil Petrol station just up the road from the Kings Hotel.

NONG KHAI
Coming out of Laos I popped into the main Shell gas station in downtown Nong Khai to top up with some clean fuel.
Only 95 Gasohol, but 91 thamada no gasohol was ok. So 91 it was.

While there, some noisy farang Harley rider rides in & screams out for 95. The staff direct him to the 95 gasohol, but his bike is so bloody noisy - he wont switch off the motor - he cant hear them saying gasohol. I yell out to him why he wants to put gasohol in his bike & he screams back no gasohol, 95 ok. He yells out 95 to the staff again & they just say yes. No mention of gasohol.
I try telling him again, but he cant hear because of the bloody noise. Finally he turns the motor off & he can hear: & I tell him that they have either 95 with gasohol or 91 without gasohol. It then sinks in & he says oh, no gasohol, no 91 & he leaves.
All pretty stupid I thought. But I think the point is that when you fuel up try to be clear what you want / ask for.

For me I ask for
gow-ha (95) thamada / benzine, no gasohol.
If they say gow-ha (95) gasohol, then ask for gow-nung (91) thamada /benzine.
Then when you think you understand it, be doubly sure & ask for gasohol, to identify where the gasohol is & stay away from it.
If you just ask for gow-ha(95) you might well end up with 95 gasohol, as that's what they sell & the young staff don't know or care about your precious bike.
 

E3L0

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Captain_Slash wrote: I have been using only 95 gasohol now for about 3000 km and no problems, I only ever used it on the fuel injection Honda Wave before until it was pointed out that you get less km per litre and the price reduction doesnt make it worthwhile. This is total crap as the Bm is still giving me 32-33 km per litre riding steady, the same as 95 gasoline did, but the gasohol is 4 Baht per litre cheaper so I personally will carry on using it
Hmm, I've just got 35mpg (imp) from a tankful of gasohol. I have refilled with 95 tamada in the hope it will give more mpg.

Bike immediately feels as if the third harmonic is suppressed :wink:
 

SilverhawkUSA

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monsterman wrote: I put a few litres of gasohol 95 in the Ducati yesterday and the bike ran OK but there was more vibration and a bit less power and response the exhaust note was a bit flatter too.When i refilled with regular 95 the machine was better a little smoother and harder edge to the sound and a bit more power.
All this from just a few litres of Gasohol? Amazing! :roll:
 

Pikey

www.tbbtours.com
I went out to do a bit of "teakwood farming" this past weekend and thought I'd try a few liters of gasohol 95 in my trusty chainsaw. Bloody hell, the thing nearly jumped out of my hands with the vibes and the cut was definitely weaker. To top it off, I got caught by the Forestry Commission - must have been that flatter exhaust note that attracted them....... :roll: Next time out I think I will try a mix of water buffalo piss and lao khao :wink:

On a more serious note, the revamped PTT/7-11 on the Mae Jo road (1001) heading north a km before the Uni junction has regular 95 (yellow pump).

Cheers,

Pikey.
 

monsterman

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I find it strange that many people do not notice subtle changes in how their bikes run due to fuel, altitude, temperature , I have been working on bikes for 35 years and can hear and feel differences in running on many machines that indicate faults or poor fuel etc.

May be it is because i started on primitive old Brit bikes and Hds .

jerry
 

Pikey

www.tbbtours.com
Jerry,

Yep, I know from personal experience that a lot of the (contributing) members of this forum have heaps of miles on bikes and consequently know how a bike "feels" and speaking for myself, I've had more than 50 bikes in the 28 years I've been consistently riding, but some of your comments - mate, read and re-read before you post. as there are a lot of well travelled and knowledgeable guys reading this and you are probably not projecting yourself in the best light (me being polite here!)

There is definitely life outside of Ducatis and (pardon me if I am wrong), I have yet to see you post a trip report on this riders board. You might think you notice the difference with a thimbleful of Redex in the tank, but most of us are just happy to be able to ride in this beautiful part of the world on at least half-decent bikes.. Food for thought?

BTW, if you fancy a roadtrip to CNX, I will welcome you and buy you the first beer. :)

Lastly and back on track of the original subject, I now see gasohol 91 for sale here - green pump.

Cheers,

Pikey.
 

Hoghead

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Feb 5, 2007
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I saw first hand the results of gasohol on a Harley Khein carb yesterday. Rotted out pump and petcock diaphragm. I imagine the other rubber bits are suspect as well.

Later HD carbs are E-10 compatible, or so my 2002 owners manual says.
How to tell the year of the carb?
 

HIKO

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Nov 7, 2005
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HI.
I have followed the Gasohol thread on this site and other sites and I got a feeling that many people don’t know what they are talking about. That’s why I tried to clarify some of the “ingredients” in this “soup”

What is gasohol?

Gasohol is a motor fuel blend of gasoline and ethanol. Gasohol 95 or 91 is the names of the blends currently available in Thailand, where 95 and 91 are the octane ratings. This fuel is a 90% gasoline, and 10% ethanol, and you might also see this written as E10 which is the European standards for blended fuels (E20 would have 20% ethanol and so on). In some countries like Brazil, Sweden and even in some Midwestern states of US you can buy up to 100% ethanol (mostly E85%) at the stations. This motor fuel can only be used in special designed engines and they use a Flexi Fuel system which detects the blend of the gasohol.

Advantages of mixing alcohol with gasoline are that alcohol tends to increase the octane rating and reduce carbon monoxide emissions.

Another advantage of the blend is that the ethanol’s corrosive power helps clean up the petrol system (fuel injection as well as carburetor system).

Also the blend’s ability to absorb water may help to clean up the petrol system.

The main problem with the blend is the corrosive power which can cause problems with rubber products. Anyhow the corrosive power is very small and the metal parts are not affected.

Theoretically the blend gives a little more power and a little worse mileage. Anyhow the differences are so small that they are difficult to experience.

Another problem, maybe not actual for us, is that the blend can split up, especially when contain water, when temperatures change quickly and in very cold climates. This is the reason why gasohol is not recommended for air planes and gasohol can cause some problems in cold climate regions.

What is ethanol?

Ethanol also called etyl alcohol is the same stuff that make you happy when drinking beer, wine and sprits. It is made from all kind of corps, like corn, grain, sugar, tapioca, palms etc. Actually any bio mass can be turned into ethanol. As a fuel it is very old and already Henry Ford build the Ford T model to run on ethanol.

Ethanol’s chemical formula is CH3CH2(OH) and it is a Hydrocarbon like gasoline. It is soluble in water. Gasoline is not. The water absorbing mechanism is good for your engine if you have problems with water condense in the carburettor. When producing ethanol it is a problem but the ethanol mixed into Gasohol is 99.5% pure. The distribution of Ethanol can cause water absorbing problems but it is not a problem when concentrations are lean like in Gasohol.

Ethanol may corrode certain materials. In one way it is good because it can clean up corrosion in the carburettor and fuel systems but on the other hand it may damage old rubber products like o-rings, oil-seals and membranes. Almost all vehicles manufactured during the last 15 years have rubber products that are E10 resistive.

What is gasoline?

First, gasoline is not a simple chemical compound like water or ethanol. It is a mixture of hundreds of different compounds distilled out from the thousands of compounds that the Crude oil have. Gasoline is recovered when heating up the crude oil from 50C to 200C. There are hundreds of different “gasolines” that are recovered and by altering the heat interval you get different kinds of gasoline. Common for them all are that they carry 6 to 12 carbon atoms in each molecule. A commonly used average for gasoline is the hydro carbonate Octane (not to be confused with what we mean with octane) which chemical formula is C8H18. The gasolines recovered at the lowest temperature become aviation gasoline, the next group automotive gasoline and then come solvents, jet fuel, kerosene diesel, lubricants, greases, asphalt etc. The gasoline we get is by no way a simple product like etanol. It also consists of much more “rubbish” than etanol for example sulphur, nitrogen, oxygen and heavy metals. So don’t blame the etanol for logging up the carburator when you fill up your tank.

What is octane

We all know that our engines have a compression stroke before it explodes due to the ignite from the sparkplug. During the compression stroke the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gas into a much smaller volume before igniting it. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine and it is the ratio between the compressed volume and the uncompressed volume. Normal ratios for motorbikes is for ex. 1 to 9.

The octane rating of the gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it explodes by itself causing knocking in the engine. The compression ratio of your engine determines the octane rating of the gas you must use in the engine. One way to increase the power of an engine is to increase its compression ratio. So a "high-performance engine" has a higher compression ratio and requires higher-octane fuel.
The hydro carbonate Octane handles compression very well and has a high compression value. Eighty-seven-octane gasoline is gasoline that contains 87-percent octane and 13-percent of another hydrocarbon heptane with a very poor octane figure. Nowadays the combination of fuels that has the same performance or better of the 87/13 combination of octane/heptane are all compared to the octane of this blend.

The race for more performance in the cars started already in the 1920 and all manufacturers tried to invent better gasoline with higher octane so that the engines could handle higher compression rates. So at this time we started to get antiknock additives in the gasoline. They started with Iodine, Aniline but ended up with Tetra Etyl Lead (TEL) which was a very efficient octane booster. The TEL also required a scavenger to remove the lead from the engine resulting in volatile lead halide salts that escape out the exhaust system.

The octane booster properties of TEL made it possible for the oil companies to manufacture cheaper (low grade) gasoline and compensate it by ever increasing addings of TEL. In the 1960 some people started to be worried about the lead effects to nature and when the engineers could not find a solution to the problem with lead gasoline and exhaust catalyst the game was over for the lead petrol.

The lead gasoline was quickly substituted with unleaded gasoline and high octane gasoline was not available anymore. In the unleaded gasoline TEL was substituted with MTEB. MTBE is the acronym for methyl tertiary butyl ether that is created from methanol (metyl alcohol). MTBE boosts the octane and it is an oxygenate that adds oxygen to the burning process. MTBE also reduces the unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide in the exhaust.

MTBE production boomed in the 1990s and as much as 15% of the gasoline could contain MTBE. But then started the problems. MTBE is carcinogenic or cancer causing. For that reason oil companies started to look for substitutes for MTBE and the natural choice was Etanol or pure alcohol.
:
SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE GASOHOL GOES INTO THE ENGINE?

The answer is quite easy. There is an oxidation process of hydrocarbons fuels that produces energy, water and carbon dioxide. The process is the same is it gasohol or pure gasoline with other additives. The hydrocarbons of the gasoline part of the fuel contains more “energy” than the hydrocarbons of ethanol. The combustion energy value is about 18.000 (BTU/LBS) for the gasoline and only about 13.000 for the ethanol. This indicates that you loose power when tanking gasohol. On the other hand the Stoichio-metric air-fuel ratio (which means the chemically optimal air/fuel ration) is about 9 for ethanol and 14 for gasoline. This means that that ethanol can accommodate more fuel than gasoline, thus producing more power but worse mileage.

Since the 10% blend is very lean it is quite questionable if you can detect the increase in power. Also the ability to take use of the better air/fuel ratio is better on fuel injected vehicles than carburetor models. We are talking about 1-3% increase in power and about the same decrease in mileage. Anyhow all talks about huge decrease in power and mileage are bullshit.

The rubber deterioration is a more serious problem. Anyhow I don’t believe in any immediate problems when changing to gasohol. The ethanol blend is still quite lean and it will take time before problems can occur. Also most of us have bike newer than 10-15 years and they already have E10 resistant rubber parts .

I think that the resistance to Gasohol is a psychological thing. People “feel” and “assumes” to much. The “political green touch to” Gasohol also make people think that it is made of garbage from the farms according to some “flower power” formula. The only garbage that Gasohol contains is the garbage that the low cost distilled gasoline contains. 99.5% pure alcohol is clean.

Hopefully this clarified a little the “Gasohol mess” but I admit it became too long.

HIKO
 

SilverhawkUSA

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Since the 10% blend is very lean it is quite questionable if you can detect the increase in power. Also the ability to take use of the better air/fuel ratio is better on fuel injected vehicles than carburetor models. We are talking about 1-3% increase in power and about the same decrease in mileage. Anyhow all talks about huge decrease in power and mileage are bullshit.
hmmm....could Monstermans seat of the pants test be wrong?

Great job there Hiko, actual facts for a change. :lol:
 

monsterman

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Thanks Hiko for that very excellent summary, off course my seat of the pants experience could be wrong... but Ducati themselves say it is better to use non gasohol 95 or if available 97/98 octane as in Europe.

I will have to use gasohol sometimes anyhow and the rubber parts issue is a potential problem for evey machine ,,, but lets enjoy our rides whatever ... I am not paranoid or negative as some may think from my posts (pikey) or a fanatical Ducatisti... no boys I love all bikes and I welcome criticism in a positive light.

hope to see some of u guys at the weekend.

Jerry
 

trawler

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Feb 19, 2006
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I bought a HD Fatboy 06 model in Nov 07 and was going ok with Gasohol,however in Jan noticed fuel tank cock leaking slightly so tightened everything but not so much help.Bike was in at Richco for some repairs due a unscheduled off road experience in rain nr Mae Hong Son.....However Richy told me that the seals on the petcock and in my carb had been damaged and asked if I had been using gasohol,I said yes and he advz not to use it and stick to normal 95 or 91 if 95 not available.He showed me the seals etc.....Now according to my owners manual the bike will be ok with gasohol up to a 10 % mix.Maybe the local stuff has more ethanol in it.Will stick to non gasohol ass long as possible.
Cheers :shock:
 

BignTall

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Oct 12, 2005
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Hiko - First off a well deserved tip of the hat to you. The post that you made in this thread is a refreshing taste of facts. Something that a rational decision needs in order to be implemented. Seems a bit too much Voodoo surrounds this subject so thank you for a dose of reality.

I read in your post the (narrow band) air/fuel Stoichio-metric air-fuel ratio is about 9 for ethanol and 14 for gasoline. A question is, will bikes outfitted with carbs (assuming other variables; temp, humidity, and elevation are constant) require a jetting change to achieve peak performance? Or is the effect on the air/fuel ratio change so insignificant as to not warrant a jetting change?

I have some 12:1 engines and have not yet run them on gasahol. I may have to when doing extended rides in Thailand now. In a motor with compression this high are there any factors that would contribute to detonation with 95 gasahol versus 95 gasoline?

Once again your writeup was a great benefit to those desiring "the quick and dirty" side of gasohol. Much appreciated.
 

HIKO

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Thanks for the nice feed back.

No, I don't think that the change to Gasohol will require any change to your jets. Since Gasohol contains only 10% on the Ethanol ( with the Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 9) and 90% Gasoline (with a Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of 14) the blend is very lean. If you have a vacuum carburetor I think the cab will "adjust" itself, if it is 100% mechanic cab then maybe adjusting the air screw and lifting the needles could give you some more power with gasoline but it is up to the bike.

You mentioned that you have a compression ratio of 12-1 which is rather high. Anyhow if it works on normal 95 it will work on 95 Gasohol but maybe you will need some octane booster. Most of them are based on TEL, MTBE or pure Metanol. Remember that at least the last one will "eat" your engine and rubbers if left in the engine for a long time and the two first destroys the nature.

HIKO
 

DavidFL

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The Cosmo petrol station in Kong Loi, on R108 half way between Hot & Mae Sarieng has 95 benzene, NO gasohol.
Interesting - the owner says that the local farmers - "cabbage pick-up drivers "- all complained that gasohol was no good in the mountains - they suffered too much power loss & only wanted non-gasohol 95, even it meant paying extra.
So he says we will always have 95 benzene, while he can get it. The farmers don't want gasohol!
 

883R

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Jul 20, 2008
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trawler wrote: I bought a HD Fatboy 06 model in Nov 07 and was going ok with Gasohol,however in Jan noticed fuel tank cock leaking slightly so tightened everything but not so much help.Bike was in at Richco for some repairs due a unscheduled off road experience in rain nr Mae Hong Son.....However Richy told me that the seals on the petcock and in my carb had been damaged and asked if I had been using gasohol,I said yes and he advz not to use it and stick to normal 95 or 91 if 95 not available.He showed me the seals etc.....Now according to my owners manual the bike will be ok with gasohol up to a 10 % mix.Maybe the local stuff has more ethanol in it.Will stick to non gasohol ass long as possible.
Cheers :shock:
I ride a 883R Sportster 03 and the guys told me, if necessary get 95 Gasohol / 91 benzene in the ratio 1:3. However I am still lucky, my local pump selling still 95 benzene :)

Cheers
 

monsterman

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Its eems that tmany bike run well on Local gasohol 95,, hell ..even my Ducati runs on it ...but there is still that lingering worry about various rubber seals ....being rotted by the gasohol.

Vigilance boys and careful maintenance will keep us on the road.

jerry
 

Hoghead

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Feb 5, 2007
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I saw the petcock and carb innerards on the HD in question, and the rubber was eaten away so that the inner fabric like material was showing.

The manual going back to around 2000 say E-10 is OK which leads me to believe that the local swill has something else in it, or a greater concentration than 10% ethanol.