Fuel problems 95 -gasohol!!!!!!

[monsterman]

95 unleaded is getting more difficult to buy around Thailand , none of my vehicles will run on gasohol especially the motorcycles and the car and Ducati do not run well on 91 unleaded .

What do you guys propose to do when 95 is not available?

 

[DavidFL]

Africa Twin's ok on 91, but I honestly don't think they will get rid of 95 totally, even though they keep making noises about it & seem to be edging closer & closer. My dumb fantasy guess is at that at the very last moment, just about when they are closing the door for the "final" last time, they will re-open it & relent. TIT?

 

[monsterman]

Many garages that stocked 95octane unleaded 3 months ago no longer sell it , now the fuel fund is also set to reduce sales further by penalising the profits of retailers who sell it.

 

[Hoghead]

The Ministry of Energy is using the Oil Fund Levy to get the oil traders to do their dirty work for them in eliminating petrol 95 from the market.

As of Nov 5. 07 , with the exception of petrol 95, the levy for all fuels was reduced by 40 stang per litre. The pump price to the Consumer remains the same, and this 40 stang goes right into the pockets of the oil traders. Margins on oil trading have become very thin, and this move means that the oil companies earn 40 stang per litre less on petrol 95. This is a very strong economic incentive, and as stated by the President of Bangkok Petroleum, will force oil traders to drop petrol 95 from the market. .

The government has had a long standing policy to remove petrol 95 from the market and backed off on this policy after the car manufacturers would not certify that their vehicles are 100% gasohol compliant. The fact that there are vehicles in use that cannot use gasohol is undisputable, While I take exception to the governments position that this numbers 500,00 vehicles, the fact remains that a considerable number of Thais simply cannot use gasohol.

Energy Minister, Piysavasti Amranand, promised to make petrol 95 available as long as vehicles incapable of using gasohol were in operation. The Energy Minister is fully aware of the economic squeeze he has put the oil traders in. His current economic disincentive is simply a well thought through means to achieve the governments goal of removing petrol 95, while he can claim to keep his hands clean and maintain his promise.

 

[mikerust]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hoghead

car manufacturers would not certify that their vehicles are 100% gasohol compliant.

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This I find unconscionably. ALL major manufacturers sell car in Brazil where petrol/gasoline is all gasohol and most new cars are Flexi-fuel and will run on 98% alcohol.(the 2% petrol/gasoline is to stop people drinking it[]) So they all have the ability to change a few rubber parts to comply.
I won't get into who owns the ethanol plants and wants 95 taken off the market to line their pockets.

 

[monsterman]

Yeah but what about all the vehicles that dont run on gasohol. none of my 4 bikes will and NISSAN say dont use it in my cefiro either as they have seen damaged Fuel pumps from it.

 

[Hoghead]

It is not about octane, it is about incompatability with gasohol. Add all the octane booster you want to no avail. Lets not forget that the immediate goal is also to remove petrol 91 and substitute E-10 gasohol 91.

The long term goal is to introduce gasohol E-20. Note that not one car on Thai roads with the exception of the brand new Ford Focus can run on E-20, however the government steadfastly refuses to give the manufacturers a excise tax break on E-20 vehicles. Its the classic chicken and egg arguement.

It is not unconscionable, but a simple engineering fact. The problem is greater than just the the rubber bits in the fuel system. If I had just bought a 30 million baht Ferrari that CANNOT run on E-10 I would be pissed. Hopefuly someone with more clout than I has just done so and will wake up to the fact that his nice new shiny red car is useless.

Lets not forget the millions of small bikes in this country. The government is not counting them in the 500,000 vehicles that by their own admission cannot run on E-10

The situation is very clear. There are many vehicles that cannot run on gasohol, there is now a surplus of ethanol and more ethanol plants coming on line, ethanol is subsidzed, influential persons own those ethanol plants, and the government is taking care of their buddies while the poor Thai is screwed.

 

[monsterman]

where can i get octane booster.?

 

[monsterman]

Nation newspaper today announced that the main fuel distributers will start selling E20 in december with 95 unleaded phased out soon. E20 will replace gasohol so no car will work!!! madness

 

[Hoghead]

Here is an article I wrote a year ago when the Ministry of Energy attempted to claim that all cars could run on E-10. Subsquently all major Thai manufacturers came out and stated that not all of their cars could run on gasohol.

If they won't run on E-10 you can safely bet that even less will run on E-20. If there is no petrol 95 we are simply screwed, and even more people are screwed worse with E-20

Oct7, 06:
Why does the PTT and the Energy Ministry continue to disseminate misinformation in an attempt to defend the ill thought through decision to withdraw petrol 95 and replace it with E-10 gasohol?

Bangkok Post reports Oct 6, 06 on a long-term test performed by the Dept. of Alternative Energy & Efficiency and PTT on 3 older Japanese vehicles claimed to represent 60% of the total number of 10+-year-old cars on Thai roads. Contrary to the test report, 2 of the 3 cars tested are deemed E-10 incompatible by the manufacturers.

The Toyota tested was a Corolla 1.3 litre 2E engine, (produced from 1985-90). Toyota's compatibility statement is very clear in that pre July 94 Corollas are not compatible, and "will not operate satisfactorily due to material incompatibility issues".

The Honda is only described as a more than 10-year-old 1.5 litre Civic with a CVC(C) engine. The only Civic listed by Honda as E-10 compatible is a 2004 or newer – clearly excluding the test vehicle. Honda then goes on to say that they do not recommend E-10 for some other vehicle models because there may be driveability issues.

The Mitsu tested is described only as a more than 10-year-old 4G-15 engine.
Mitsu's compatibility statement reads "all petrol engines manufactured since 1986 will operate satisfactorily ....... vehicles with carburetors before 1991 may experience hot fuel handling concerns and may experience a lower level of durability in some fuel system components".

Also tested were some unnamed 10 year + European cars, that the Ministry claim showed no engine problems. Euro manufacturer statements show however, that some or all models of Alfa, Audi, Fiat, Lotus, MG, Rover, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Citroen, Peugeot, Renault, and Volkswagen are either gasohol incompatible or not recommended.

The Ministry is conspicuously silent regarding compatibility of the 23 million small motorcycles on Thai roads. Note that no major Japanese manufacturer, including Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Kawasaki recommends the use of gasohol.

Thai vehicle manufacturers seem loath to publish a statement on gasohol. The public must educate themselves about compatibility, as the information coming out from the Energy Ministry and PTT is circumspect at best. See for yourself at:
http://www.autoindustries.com.au/ethano ... 00005.html
http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1466787.htm

The new government must review the decision, to stop selling petrol 95 Jan 1. 07, and rethink the Ministry’s stated long term goal to phase out petrol entirely by 2012. By all means introduce gasohol, but keep petrol available for those that have no other choice.

 

[Hoghead]

Bangkok Post reports today that the margin on petrol 95 is 10 stang per litre, and as I suspected, The Nation reports that Bangchak Petroleum will stop selling petrol 95 Dec. 1, 07.

The Nation links are not online long, so read it now:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/11 ... 056071.php

Petrol 91 will be next to be removed from the market. Perhaps the Energy Minister could explain what the owners or the estimated 23 million motorcycles and 500,000 cars that CANNOT run on gasohol are to do?

The government is expected to begin promotion of E-20 (20%) gasohol in Dec 07 with Bangchak beginning to offer E-20 in January 08.
It will be very interesting to see the manufacturers compatabiliy statements on E-20 as to my knowledge only the Ford Focus is the only car in the Thai market certified to run on E-20. I will research this tomorrow to confirm

E-20 is a chicken and egg question. The Excise Department refuses to reduce the excise tax on E-20 vehicles so there is no incentive for the manufacturers to offer the cars. Until there are vehicles capable of using the fuel, where is the market, or is it just to be forced upon the consumer?

This is either utter madness, or blatant corruption.
The government needs to stop blindly supporting those who own the ethanol companies, and support the Thai consumer. Make petrol 91 and 95 available for those that must have it.

 

[mikerust]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hoghead

The problem is greater than just the the rubber bits in the fuel system.

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Can't be much more than that for 20% etanol. ALL gasoline in Brazil is "E-20 or E-15" at least and ALL cars in Brazil run on it even 40 year old VW's and Fiats.
Yes to run on E-100 (actually) 98% my VW GOL had a seperate washer-bottle-looking extral gas tank in the engine compartment. Something to do with starting. I never did find out if it was a hot problem or a cold problem.
No one has mentioned yet the drop in fuel mileage when using ethanol. I used to get about 650kms from tank of "gasoline" but only 450 with 100% alcohol.
That Ford's Focus will run on it may not be surprising as Focus is a "world" car and as such is available in Brazil. Not sure if the Brzilian model is also flexifuel.

 

[Hoghead]

You cannot compare Thai market vehicles to those in Brazil or anywhere else for that matter. Take the lack of safety equipment in Thai vehicles for example.

The GOL is a Brazil only car, and ethanol fuels have been mandated and used there since the 70's so not surprising that even old vehicles are ethanol compatible. TIT - This is not the case in Thailand as the car manufacturers pointed out last year when they refused to certify that their Thai market cars are E-10 compatible. There are valid technical concerns and it really is much more than rubber bits.

The Focus is the only Thai market car to be E-20 compatible, and is not flex fuel. The Honda Jazz is to be E-20 compatible when introduced in Mar. 08. As is sits now and for the near future the percentage of Thai vehicles that are E-20 capable is very limited.

 

[Franz]

I've got a Focus 2.0 and never experienced any troubles, although I already had to fill it with 91 and also gasohol. So, while buying a car punish those local japanese brand dealers in not even considering them. Focus is also the first compact car to get a 2.0 liters turbocharged diesel engine. On second thought, also the Mazda 323 should be an option as this car is based on the Focus' wheelbase and engine but more expensive by ~THB 100k..........

 

[mikerust]

quote:

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Originally posted by Hoghead

There are valid technical concerns and it really is much more than rubber bits.

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Yeah OK "To run E85 fuel in an early car, the fuel system must not have any bare or unprotected aluminum, magnesium, or rubber components as the ethanol attacks them all. Ethanol conducts electricity whereas gasoline does not, so any electric fuel pumps used must be nonconductive where the fuel transfers through the pump. Likewise, any rubber diaphragm in a mechanical fuel pump could be subject to failure"

But it is not rocket science. Agreed Brazil is more European oriented so the most popular vehicles are European but most are locally produced. Fiat, VW, Ford and Peugoet being the big players, I did see aquite a few Audi's also. There are Japanese cars there so compatible bits must already exist.
It is just a question of will power on the part of the manufacturers. More likely they are holding out to justify higher prices. Just the cynic in me.

EDIT: Hmmm. just was wondering what Brazilian bikers do? I tried to find a Brazilian bike club to converse with but no luck so far. I've seen big bikes in Brazil. TDM's I saw two, Honda 4's saw them also, there were more but I was lost and concentrating on the map?

 

[monsterman]

Ducati sell a lot of bikes in brazil so they must be Ethanol compatible ,, but DUCATI told me that only USA models can use it not Japan or Europe.

 

[Azoulay]

Hi Jerry,

So what should I use in my S2R ? Critical issue for us now ?

 

[monsterman]

Azoulay , when I can I fill with 95 unleaded but it is getting more difficult , in the last week 4 Gas stations in Chonburi that sold it no longer do and more are following. 91 unleaded works but the bikes run poorly, that too is to be phased out in afew years . Ducati say no Gasohol so I may sell my bike soon.

 

[Azoulay]

Hi Jerry and Friends,

So Jerry if you sale your DUCATI bike you'll let me down as one of the last Mohicans....

What to buy now, I thought about a BUELL 1125 2008 Model or a BMW R 1200GS, do you think it works with the fuel we'll find in Thailand ?

 

[Ian Bungy]

The Triumph Book for my New Tiger says it is OK to run it on Gasohol??? Strange as on another Part of the same Page it says if your Engine starts Pinging or Rattling etc to use a Higher Octane Fuel, A Bit difficult if it isn't avalible!!!

 

[Pikey]

Ian,

Khun Yut assures me that the Triumph 1050 engine runs on gasohol E10 no probs and that my Bonnie will run on 91 OK and can also run on gasohol but this will accelerate wear in the carbs. I'll forward you the mail and also start saving for a pair of flatslides for when the diaphragms are f*cked in the Trumpet! []

Cheers,

Pikey.

 

[monsterman]

quote:

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Originally posted by AZOULAY

Hi Jerry and Friends,

So Jerry if you sale your DUCATI bike you'll let me down as one of the last Mohicans....

What to buy now, I thought about a BUELL 1125 2008 Model or a BMW R 1200GS, do you think it works with the fuel we'll find in Thailand ?

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BMW I am not sure about but HD will run OK on gasohol.m i am going to test gasohol in my Ducati ,, its a gambol but what bthe hell !

 

[Azoulay]

Hi Jerry,

Tell me if from your HD shop in Pattaya, is ther any possibility about brand new BUELL and what does it cost with plate and book ?

 

[monsterman]

They can probably get new BUELL but i will ask about price etc?

 

[monsterman]

I wrote to Ducati and phoned them twice last year about Gasohol, no answers at all from Bolonga , but i have a friend working nearby in a test facility for FIAT/Ferrari and he spoke to some Ducati test enginners who said Ducati have never had a policy abiout E10 gasohol .
But they have seen a lot of fuel system problems whilst testing FIATs and Ferraris with it even with fuel systems designed for it that is why it is not sold in Europe.

So the answer is that we may have to use a fuel which manufactures themselves dont validate.

NISSAN thailand told me that my car a CEFIRO (maxima)V6 is designed to run on Gasohol E10 but they also have seen many fuel system problems with it and that it is not allowed to be sold in JAPAN so what does that tell you about Gasohol.

My wifes 250cc Honda rebel carbs were wrecked by gasohol, and many people in pattaya who have put it in motorcycles have had to have carburetor rebuilds.