Fuel problems 95 -gasohol!!!!!!
- Thread starter monsterman
- Start date
On the way North to Doi Mae Salong a few days rolled into 1 gas sation just out of Chiang Mai & there was only gasohol available - both 91 & 95! No 91 or 95 "regular."
So perhaps they really are going to try & force non gasohol off the market?
So perhaps they really are going to try & force non gasohol off the market?
It's an annoying problem.
According to a thai mechanic (I know, I know) big bikes will be alright if the engine management system is fuel injected, it's the carbareters-fed engines that can wear-down and fail on gasohol.
Right now I'm just using 91 octane.
Fuel stations like Jet are only dispensing gasohol only 91 and 95 now though!
According to a thai mechanic (I know, I know) big bikes will be alright if the engine management system is fuel injected, it's the carbareters-fed engines that can wear-down and fail on gasohol.
Right now I'm just using 91 octane.
Fuel stations like Jet are only dispensing gasohol only 91 and 95 now though!
Caltex - 1st on the left as you are heading out of Chiang Mai on 1001, not far from the Superhighway.
Gas station + 7/11 across the street from TOT on Muang Samut Rd - they've just installed new pumps for bikes, one pump has 95.
Phrao - if you've come out 1001, turn left on 1150 towards Chiang Dao - the gas station right on the edge of town has 95.
Pai - big place on the right on main road as you come into town has 95
Petronas Gas stations ALL seem to have 95.
Cheers
Ben
Gas station + 7/11 across the street from TOT on Muang Samut Rd - they've just installed new pumps for bikes, one pump has 95.
Phrao - if you've come out 1001, turn left on 1150 towards Chiang Dao - the gas station right on the edge of town has 95.
Pai - big place on the right on main road as you come into town has 95
Petronas Gas stations ALL seem to have 95.
Cheers
Ben
This from the Ducati Monster manual-
"Warning
Use fuel with low lead content and an original octane number of at least 95." :?
I think it is just the o-rings in the carbs that are the problem, the gasohol causes them to perish. I don't think the engine will fail.
My TDM (850 with carburetors) had the problem and it just caused poor fuelling characterised by a peaky power delivery and a bit of black smoke. Sa in cnx changed the o-rings for me and this sorted it completely; no permanent damage.
I kept the TDM for another 2 years and had to use gasohol occasionally but the problem never came back.
When I changed the TDM for a GSX1400 (fuel injected) Vikrom at Red Baron (bkk) made a point of telling me that I could now use gasohol.
I guess my point is that it MIGHT be okay to just use gasohol anyway and budget for o-ring replacement when necessary. Just a thought.
Having just crossed from Europe through India, Tibet, China and Laos to Thailand (with a detour through the Arabian peninsula) I find Thailand to be the first country where I have fuel problems. I ride a Suzi DR650SE and the manual states to use at least 91 octane unleaded. With this the engine pings and knocks badly under load, leading me to the conclusion that Thai 91 doesn't have 91 octane. On top of that, my carb has more than just O-rings, there is also a rubber membrane. If that fails the engine will stop.
So far, I have been unable to fill up with 95 at all, it was never available when I needed gas.
To add to my confusion I understand from what has been written here that there is 95 with and without ethanol. If this is correct, can somebody give me a clue on how a tourist like me, who doesn't read or understand Thai, can distinguish between the two?
Thanks for your help in advance.
So far, I have been unable to fill up with 95 at all, it was never available when I needed gas.
To add to my confusion I understand from what has been written here that there is 95 with and without ethanol. If this is correct, can somebody give me a clue on how a tourist like me, who doesn't read or understand Thai, can distinguish between the two?
Thanks for your help in advance.
TDM had vacuum carbs, with the membranes. They were never changed and never caused a problem. I have only heard reference to the o-rings with respect to this problem and they may well be made of a different substance.
Hmm. There is colour coding but I don't know if it is standard across different retailers.
None of the petrol stations are self service so you will always be served by somebody. They will understand the word gasohol and you can do the rest in pantomime.
Gasohol is the one with ethanol in it.
Try saying something like "super, 95". Then asking "gasohol?" and
see what they say, before they actually put the hose in your tank,
to make more sure.
Often the tanks at the gasstation have different colours for gasohol. Yellow is usually 95 super, orange i95 gasohol.
First check is to look at the price though. 95 costs 33-34 baht, while
gasahol is around 30-31 baht.
I am new to bikes, new to this forum and new to this issue. But I am sure I am not alone.
When I read through all the posts on the fuel issue and then search elsewhere too, I fail to get a clear simple to understand view of the problem.
Can I respectfully suggest there be a sticky or a forum section to hold advice rather than discussion on this issue, that is clearly here to stay.
If I am asking stupid questions I apologise but I am a late blooming petrol head, not a life long biker like many members in this community.
My questions are these:
Ally
When I read through all the posts on the fuel issue and then search elsewhere too, I fail to get a clear simple to understand view of the problem.
Can I respectfully suggest there be a sticky or a forum section to hold advice rather than discussion on this issue, that is clearly here to stay.
If I am asking stupid questions I apologise but I am a late blooming petrol head, not a life long biker like many members in this community.
My questions are these:
- 1 - I am running my 125 Honda Wave 2003 and 1100 Yamaha Dragstar 2006 on 91. Should I be using 95 on either ?
2 - Now I read that the gasohol argument is upon us and both 91 & 95 will be phased out as we know them today. Can I run either bike on this E-10 mix?
3 - If I cannot, what do I actually need to do to the bike(s) and what is the process of getting that done?
Ally
After you read all the reports & get confused I'm certainly not convinced that gasohol is the way to go.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farmmgt/05010.html
If you’ve got a new bike with fuel injection, you're probably ok.
But if you've got an older carburreted bike, then you could end up having problems with seals & rubbers corroding & gunking up the system after awhile. How long will probably depend on how old your rubber seals are, & how corrosive the brand of gasohol is.
http://www.nodai.ac.jp/campuslife/overs ... ailand.pdf
“Ethanol tends to clean the dirt out of fuel systems of old vehicles and dirt accumulates plugging up the filters.”
For me with an older bike it's going to be worrisome for awhile I reckon, & I won’t be putting any gasohol in my bike if I can help it. So its 91 or 95 tamada if I can get it.
In Chiang Mai, the Shell on the SW corner of the moat still has 95 & 91 tamada. Also the PTT on Muang Samut road, opposite the TOT office, still has both 91 & 95 tamada.
http://www.motorcycleperf.com/techtips/gasoline.htm
I think the problem is with the quality & percentage of gasohol that comes out of the pump. Probably very inconsistent & not always good, so if you've got an older bike with old seals, rubbers & a somewhat dirty fuel system, then you could be looking at trouble.
Ok you guys, I had a go, don't you all shoot me down. I hope it helps clear the air a bit, as that's the way I see it.
(Now I wonder which politicians own all the sugar cane / tapioca /corn / ethanol refineries though?)
Scotty007 the fuel systems expert what do you think?
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/farmmgt/05010.html
If you’ve got a new bike with fuel injection, you're probably ok.
But if you've got an older carburreted bike, then you could end up having problems with seals & rubbers corroding & gunking up the system after awhile. How long will probably depend on how old your rubber seals are, & how corrosive the brand of gasohol is.
http://www.nodai.ac.jp/campuslife/overs ... ailand.pdf
“Ethanol tends to clean the dirt out of fuel systems of old vehicles and dirt accumulates plugging up the filters.”
For me with an older bike it's going to be worrisome for awhile I reckon, & I won’t be putting any gasohol in my bike if I can help it. So its 91 or 95 tamada if I can get it.
In Chiang Mai, the Shell on the SW corner of the moat still has 95 & 91 tamada. Also the PTT on Muang Samut road, opposite the TOT office, still has both 91 & 95 tamada.
http://www.motorcycleperf.com/techtips/gasoline.htm
I think the problem is with the quality & percentage of gasohol that comes out of the pump. Probably very inconsistent & not always good, so if you've got an older bike with old seals, rubbers & a somewhat dirty fuel system, then you could be looking at trouble.
Ok you guys, I had a go, don't you all shoot me down. I hope it helps clear the air a bit, as that's the way I see it.
(Now I wonder which politicians own all the sugar cane / tapioca /corn / ethanol refineries though?)
Scotty007 the fuel systems expert what do you think?
Now just to make things more interesting, some gas stations are now selling 91 Gasahol
Yellow 95 says BENZINE
Green 91 says BENZINE GASAHOL
Blue says BIO DIESEL
Orange 95 says BENZINE GASAHOL
Red 91 says BENZINE
Blue says DIESEL
Basically on 91/95 if only one word will say benzine, if 2 words will say benzine gasahol
Yellow 95 says BENZINE
Green 91 says BENZINE GASAHOL
Blue says BIO DIESEL
Orange 95 says BENZINE GASAHOL
Red 91 says BENZINE
Blue says DIESEL
Basically on 91/95 if only one word will say benzine, if 2 words will say benzine gasahol
I think the problem of supply at a local level comes down to "How many storage tanks does the outlet have"
Small outlets with three or four tanks who prevoiusly sold 95,91 and diesel may now only have biodesiel, and gashahol if the local economy dictates this.
We may be lucky in as much that they may still only be putting 91 in barrels to sell at local village stores. (The ones with the clear glass hand pumps)
Q. is there a diff. in colour between gasahol and benzine/petrol. Ie. when one pulls up usually they have red fuel and piss coloured?
Small outlets with three or four tanks who prevoiusly sold 95,91 and diesel may now only have biodesiel, and gashahol if the local economy dictates this.
We may be lucky in as much that they may still only be putting 91 in barrels to sell at local village stores. (The ones with the clear glass hand pumps)
Q. is there a diff. in colour between gasahol and benzine/petrol. Ie. when one pulls up usually they have red fuel and piss coloured?
From the US Corn Growers / Ethanol Producers
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/your_c ... motorcycle
CONSUMER MYTH BUSTERS
In spite of the fact that billions of trouble-free miles have been driven using ethanol-blended gasoline (most on E-10 Unleaded), some myths still persist regarding its use. Here are the facts:
MYTH: Ethanol causes “vapor lock.”
FACT: State and federal statutes continue to lower vapor pressure levels, virtually eliminating the vapor lock problems that were reported in the past. Additionally, all major auto manufacturers now use in-tank fuel pumps, which are not subject to vapor lock problems as were the older in-line fuel pumps.
MYTH: Ethanol plugs up fuel lines and fuel injectors.
FACT: Situations involving plugged fuel filters are virtually non-existent today. In the past (especially in cars made prior to 1975), switching to ethanol-blended gasoline occasionally resulted in the fuel system being scrubbed clean due to the cleansing nature of ethanol. The loosened residue would be caught in the fuel filter—requiring a filter change. Once the filter was changed, the fuel system remained clean, enhancing engine performance.
Some components in gasoline, such as olefins (which are a waxy substance), can cause deposits that foul injectors. But since ethanol burns 100 percent and leaves no residue, it cannot contribute to the formation of deposits. In fact, ethanol blends help keep fuel injectors cleaner.
MYTH: Ethanol blends can’t be used in small engines.
FACT: E-10 Unleaded is perfectly acceptable in lawn mowers, snowmobiles, ATVs and other small engines that run on ordinary unleaded gasoline. Virtually every small engine manufacturer, including Briggs & Stratton, Honda, Toro/Lawnboy, Kohler and Snapper, approves the use of E-10 Unleaded in its equipment.
MYTH: Most auto mechanics tell people not to use ethanol-blended gasoline.
FACT: A mechanic who says not to use E-10 Unleaded simply does not have correct information—particularly since every major automaker in the world approves the use of 10 blends ethanol blends under warranty. Fuel formulation and fuel quality have changed dramatically over the years, and many auto mechanics simply don’t have current information or knowledge of these changes and how they affect engine performance. The result: When a problem appears to be fuel related, some mechanics will immediately ask if E-10 Unleaded has been used—and if so, blame ethanol for the problem. In some states, E-10 Unleaded advocates have offered a substantial reward to any customer who can document damage from E-10 Unleaded to his or her car—and so far, no one has ever collected.
MYTH: E-10 Unleaded cannot be used in older cars.
FACT: The formulation of gasoline has changed considerably over the past few years without affecting the performance of older cars. Many older cars were designed to run on leaded gasoline, with the lead providing the octane necessary for engine performance. When lead was phased out of gasoline, oil companies added toxic chemicals to raise the octane rating and other additives to replace the “lubrication” value of lead.
The ethanol in E-10 Unleaded raises octane in gasoline by three points and it does so using a natural, renewable additive that works well in older engines.
AND FROM OZ (the other side?)
http://www.autoindustries.com.au/ethano ... 00005.html
REASONS WHY ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN SOME OLDER VEHICLES
INTRODUCTION
The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made before 1986. This information is also applicable to post-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.
Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.
CARBURETTOR EQUIPPED ENGINES
Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.
The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.
Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.
As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.
Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.
FUEL INJECTED ENGINES
In addition to the issues mentioned above for carburettor equipped engines, the use of ethanol blended petrol in fuel injection systems will result in early deterioration of components such as injector seals, delivery pipes, and fuel pump and regulator.
Mechanical fuel injection systems and earlier electronic systems may not be able to fully compensate for the lean-out effect of ethanol blended petrol, resulting in hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration.
Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start can also result.
http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/main/your_c ... motorcycle
CONSUMER MYTH BUSTERS
In spite of the fact that billions of trouble-free miles have been driven using ethanol-blended gasoline (most on E-10 Unleaded), some myths still persist regarding its use. Here are the facts:
MYTH: Ethanol causes “vapor lock.”
FACT: State and federal statutes continue to lower vapor pressure levels, virtually eliminating the vapor lock problems that were reported in the past. Additionally, all major auto manufacturers now use in-tank fuel pumps, which are not subject to vapor lock problems as were the older in-line fuel pumps.
MYTH: Ethanol plugs up fuel lines and fuel injectors.
FACT: Situations involving plugged fuel filters are virtually non-existent today. In the past (especially in cars made prior to 1975), switching to ethanol-blended gasoline occasionally resulted in the fuel system being scrubbed clean due to the cleansing nature of ethanol. The loosened residue would be caught in the fuel filter—requiring a filter change. Once the filter was changed, the fuel system remained clean, enhancing engine performance.
Some components in gasoline, such as olefins (which are a waxy substance), can cause deposits that foul injectors. But since ethanol burns 100 percent and leaves no residue, it cannot contribute to the formation of deposits. In fact, ethanol blends help keep fuel injectors cleaner.
MYTH: Ethanol blends can’t be used in small engines.
FACT: E-10 Unleaded is perfectly acceptable in lawn mowers, snowmobiles, ATVs and other small engines that run on ordinary unleaded gasoline. Virtually every small engine manufacturer, including Briggs & Stratton, Honda, Toro/Lawnboy, Kohler and Snapper, approves the use of E-10 Unleaded in its equipment.
MYTH: Most auto mechanics tell people not to use ethanol-blended gasoline.
FACT: A mechanic who says not to use E-10 Unleaded simply does not have correct information—particularly since every major automaker in the world approves the use of 10 blends ethanol blends under warranty. Fuel formulation and fuel quality have changed dramatically over the years, and many auto mechanics simply don’t have current information or knowledge of these changes and how they affect engine performance. The result: When a problem appears to be fuel related, some mechanics will immediately ask if E-10 Unleaded has been used—and if so, blame ethanol for the problem. In some states, E-10 Unleaded advocates have offered a substantial reward to any customer who can document damage from E-10 Unleaded to his or her car—and so far, no one has ever collected.
MYTH: E-10 Unleaded cannot be used in older cars.
FACT: The formulation of gasoline has changed considerably over the past few years without affecting the performance of older cars. Many older cars were designed to run on leaded gasoline, with the lead providing the octane necessary for engine performance. When lead was phased out of gasoline, oil companies added toxic chemicals to raise the octane rating and other additives to replace the “lubrication” value of lead.
The ethanol in E-10 Unleaded raises octane in gasoline by three points and it does so using a natural, renewable additive that works well in older engines.
AND FROM OZ (the other side?)
http://www.autoindustries.com.au/ethano ... 00005.html
REASONS WHY ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR USE IN SOME OLDER VEHICLES
INTRODUCTION
The following information outlines the key reasons why vehicle manufacturers do not recommend the use of any ethanol/petrol blended fuels in vehicles made before 1986. This information is also applicable to post-1986 vehicles listed as unsuitable to use ethanol blended petrol.
Ethanol has a number of important chemical and physical properties that need to be considered in a vehicle's design.
CARBURETTOR EQUIPPED ENGINES
Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.
The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.
Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.
As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.
Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.
FUEL INJECTED ENGINES
In addition to the issues mentioned above for carburettor equipped engines, the use of ethanol blended petrol in fuel injection systems will result in early deterioration of components such as injector seals, delivery pipes, and fuel pump and regulator.
Mechanical fuel injection systems and earlier electronic systems may not be able to fully compensate for the lean-out effect of ethanol blended petrol, resulting in hesitation or flat-spots during acceleration.
Difficulty in starting and engine hesitation after cold start can also result.
Seems all a bit of a grey area for now and I for one will adopt the "suck it and see" attitude. I will try to keep to non-ethanol fuel but by the looks of it, that is going to become harder as time goes by.
One thing I did take out of David's posts is that I think for those of you who store a bike here and use it only maybe once or twice a year, run it dry as the Ethanol absorbs water which will lead to problems starting after a lay-up.
When I was living in the UK, I used to have a 916 that was my track bike and consequently was laid-up for periods of time. A mechanic mate of mine recommended putting a pint or so of diesel into the tank and running it for a bit - the theory being that the oiliness of the diesel would coat the injectors e.t.c and stop the petrol from gumming them up. I never had any probs firing that bike up after extended periods. Could work the same with ethanol.....
Cheers,
Pikey.
One thing I did take out of David's posts is that I think for those of you who store a bike here and use it only maybe once or twice a year, run it dry as the Ethanol absorbs water which will lead to problems starting after a lay-up.
When I was living in the UK, I used to have a 916 that was my track bike and consequently was laid-up for periods of time. A mechanic mate of mine recommended putting a pint or so of diesel into the tank and running it for a bit - the theory being that the oiliness of the diesel would coat the injectors e.t.c and stop the petrol from gumming them up. I never had any probs firing that bike up after extended periods. Could work the same with ethanol.....
Cheers,
Pikey.
The Report from David specially the one from America seems very Positive but could be Biased? The Australian one goes back to normal suspicions? Captain Slash as one of our Own on the other hand gives a Positive Report so promising! Could be a case of Trial & Error for most of us i think. Good Luck!
Thanks guys for "going around" once more but at least we got an updated view of the problem.
The picture posts explaining the 1 or 2 word version will no doubt stick in people minds too but of course we will all be asking the obvious questions before they start squirting their delivery to the tank.
Now I can safely say I have a more informed, positive but open mind about the future!
Cheers
Ally
The picture posts explaining the 1 or 2 word version will no doubt stick in people minds too but of course we will all be asking the obvious questions before they start squirting their delivery to the tank.
Now I can safely say I have a more informed, positive but open mind about the future!
Cheers
Ally
I have more info now on Ducati and Gasohol.
Ducati Thonglor have finally got a Technical Bulletin from Bolonga about use of gasohol 95 as so many customers have been worried about fuel availability in Thailand .
All Fuel injection models from 1999 to present should be fine with gasohol 95 but Ducati say that they may suffer a 6-10% power loss.
earlier Fuel injection models and Carburettor models may need modifications to internal rubber components and fuel pumps to run on gasohol 95 .
Also today went out with my wife to Sriracha and now all jet stations no longer sell 95 regular it is JET policy to no longer sell 95 regular and all stations are being converted by end of Jan 2008.. they were handing out flyers in Thai about this.
Ducati Thonglor have finally got a Technical Bulletin from Bolonga about use of gasohol 95 as so many customers have been worried about fuel availability in Thailand .
All Fuel injection models from 1999 to present should be fine with gasohol 95 but Ducati say that they may suffer a 6-10% power loss.
earlier Fuel injection models and Carburettor models may need modifications to internal rubber components and fuel pumps to run on gasohol 95 .
Also today went out with my wife to Sriracha and now all jet stations no longer sell 95 regular it is JET policy to no longer sell 95 regular and all stations are being converted by end of Jan 2008.. they were handing out flyers in Thai about this.
No You are wrong David as PTT are still selling 95 as i filled up the car and bikes at PTT today, yes they have taken over Jet but Jet managment had already implemented tha all Gasohol policy before the takeover.
i sopke this morning with my friend steve who is a Manager at one of the Mahtaput rayong refineries and he told me that there is a lot of confusion about Gasohol and it is not easy to mix it properly so some batches are better than others also Jet stopped regular 95 due to to many mix ups by the staff so better just to have a couple of oiptions . Eg: BIO DIESEL and Gasohol 95/91 = simpler for the vendor.
and the4 customer can suck it and see.
i sopke this morning with my friend steve who is a Manager at one of the Mahtaput rayong refineries and he told me that there is a lot of confusion about Gasohol and it is not easy to mix it properly so some batches are better than others also Jet stopped regular 95 due to to many mix ups by the staff so better just to have a couple of oiptions . Eg: BIO DIESEL and Gasohol 95/91 = simpler for the vendor.
and the4 customer can suck it and see.
And while he's at it, maybe he could persuade the big-boys to allow bikes over, say 600cc on the expressways. :wink: