Bikes and Bio Fuel

Eddysuratt

Active Member
Jun 1, 2008
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Dear friends..... for all discussion , please have a look at the Bangkok Post today, sunday 8th of june 2008, under :

www.bangkokpost.com/index.php
Look options : Postbag : E 85 is not Thailands energy
answer

Thats very interesting to read . Give some answer to all discussion points.

Enjoy the happy sunday .... no rain in the south. Eddy Suratt.
 

monsterman

Ol'Timer
Oct 17, 2006
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Eddie the Blackbird 2003 is listed as a Gasohol compatible vehicle as is my Nissan car but as u found out they do not run properly on Gasohol 95 .
 

monsterman

Ol'Timer
Oct 17, 2006
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The Bangkok post letter about E85 is spot on it has benefits and problems, its a pipe dream as at present few vehicles can use it.
 

Eddysuratt

Active Member
Jun 1, 2008
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Thanks for confirmation... my Blackbird friend told me, that he need to change also some rubber parts at the carburator.... This parts are damaged by GASOHOL...Clean the injection pump etc.etc to avoid some more problems later on. So, means to be listed its not the guaranty to use it withtout trouble. Or , do disturb your engine , at the beginning.. Only some parts to repair and changing , from time to time. Its not Governement money. Its only our problem. :lol: :shock:

Eddy , Suratt.
 

HIKO

Ol'Timer
Nov 7, 2005
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WATER CONTAMINATION AND GASOHOL.

In response to Pikeys, Bush Pilot and Monsterman.

I think that you are talking about two different kinds of “water contamination” in Gasohol.

1. The ethyl alcohol ingredient in Gasohol has the power to wipe out the water in your vehicle’s fuel tank and fuel system regardless of injection or carburetor model. This happens because all alcohol can mix with water but pure gasoline not. So if you have a vehicle that has used pure gasoline you will for sure have some water in the system, the water taking the consistence of small water “balls” blocking different parts in the fuel system thus causing disturbances in the running of the engine. It can even cause engine failure if to much water goes into the combustion causing lubrication problems. It also caused other problems like rusting tanks putting rust into the fuel system blocking it or alloy parts being oxygenated. Long time ago, even before we have heard about gasohol we used to fix this problems by adding alcohol into the gasoline. Nowadays we add ethyl alcohol on a regular basis also for other reasons but also to get rid of the water contamination in the fuel system.
2. “The water contamination problem with Gasohol” which I think Jerry is talking about is a total different issue and you will probably not face it with a motorbike. When there is too much water in the fuel system for ex. water in the tank (maybe because of bike washing with a leaking cap gasket) the ethyl alcohol part of the Gasohol blend will accommodate the water but the gasoline part cannot accommodate the ethyl alcohol with such a high water percentage. This will cause the Gasohol blend to separate with one layer of ethyl alcohol blend and water in the bottom and an other layer of pure gasoline on the top causing the engine to stop. This will occur on motorbikes only at very special occasions like that you wash the motorbike and the water goes into the tank, driving longtime in rain without air filter etc. Also river crossings can causes this problem but that is maybe to obvious…. This type of problem is more obvious in aero planes where the temperature changes drastically causing the gasohol to separate. This happens because the level when they separate is much lower in cold than warm. The same problem can occur when driving cars in cold climates. When Jerry talked about; “as well as the problems with water separation” he must have meant ethyl separation from the gasoline, a process that is very rare in motorbikes. Actually this is mostly a problem for the distribution chain. When they put new fresh gasohol in a petrol station’s tank that contains plenty of water the phenomena of the ethyl alcohol separating from the Gasohol could happen, resulting into people getting low octane pure gasoline instead of Gasohol.

If you are interested how ethanol blended gasoline will affect your engine pls download below the report (or actually there are many reports, even reports of how small recreational engines will be affected) The document presents the findings of vehicle testing completed by the Orbital Engine Company in order to assess the impact of gasoline containing 20% by volume ethanol on the Australian passenger vehicle fleet. The test is conducted by taking 5+5 new cars and 4 old cars representing the average Australian car fleet and driving the cars 80.000 km, partly under laboratory conditions. The reports are very technical and heavy to read.

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/publications/testing-passenger-fleet/index.html

For an amusing and “down to earth” thread about this problem where people don’t seems to know anything about gasohol but still they use it….see:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/2942/Water-Contaminated-Petrol

HIKO
 

HIKO

Ol'Timer
Nov 7, 2005
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EDDY SURAT
Just a few comments on your posts.

1. Facts It is not a fact when you just quote experience from a friend. That's sounds more like "I've heard" rumors. Tell about your own experience not others.

2. Your first statement that putting gasohol into your friends tank resulted in the top speed dropping from 260 to 190 and that the problems disappeared by putting 91 no gasohol into the tank that is not fact that is bullshit, even if you give the telephone number of your friend. Partly you answer the question in your later post where you tell that the fuel system was blocked. If it is blocked it doesn't help to put fresh 91 no gasohol;, the problems remains. To blame the blocked fuel system on the Gasohol is a little to drastic. It maybe so that the fuel systems had plenty of "shit" that was cleaned out when your friend put gasohol in his tank. Gasohol has not the power to eat the rubber parts in a few seconds...

Pls tell your friend that there are probably tens of thousands blackbirds in traffic all over the world tanking gasohol every day... The blackbird is approved for gasohol by the factory. I had a Blackbird (sold it last week) carburetor model which accepted gasohol without problems. Many of the claimed problems are between your ears.

HIKO

PS. I agree with You that the article in Bangkok Post was ok but it didn't cover the issues in this thread. It talked about E85 which is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline as Jerry said. The Gasohol (E10) is a total different business.
 

Eddysuratt

Active Member
Jun 1, 2008
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Sorry HIKO ... you are the expert. My fact was only , that we rode at the same time and same way. Next to eachother. So, my report was an eye-witness report. But the conclusion of all, I will let my friend know your guess and comment.
Thanks for the reports and explanations. For water, it seems really clear, I did have this problems also with a 95 gasoline ESSO tank filling. Special this problem can occurs if you fill on small countryside stations. Sometimes they mixe a little bit of water by themselve into the gasoline. Its lower in price and bring more profit. Seen this report on the Thai-TV , with picture and original comment from the gasoline staion owner.

Eddy, Suratt
 

monsterman

Ol'Timer
Oct 17, 2006
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Interesting info has come to light week on Ducati forums around the world about problems of the latest Fuel Injected Ducati models having many problems with the EFI , 90% of the problems occured on bikes sold in the USA not in UK ,Australia or rest of EU.

The North American models use the same fuelling chips as EU spec models so for the last 3 year Ducati North America has been subjected to a host of legal claims...as the fix is an aftermarket Computer chip and new Cans $2500+ so why so many problems in USA which is Ducatis biggest market ?

Now it appears that the problem is not defectice O2 sensors ,EFIs etc or even expensive after market fixes....... but Gasohol as E10% gasohol is mandated in almost every State. When people gat hold of regular non ethanol added fuels the bike start to run properly .
Ducati designed the bikes to run at optimal performance using Regular RON95 fuel is still readily available in Europe the factory says the bikes will ''RUN'' on Gasohol but not as they are intended.

this is causing a big stink among Ducati owners in the USA and many people are posting now that the same problems affect their cars and other vehicles.
 

HIKO

Ol'Timer
Nov 7, 2005
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Jerry where the hell do you take your information from?

Last night and this morning I went through about 200 Ducati internet sites as well as motorcycle news paper’s sites. I have read most of the American web sites, the English web sites, the Australian web sites, the New Zeeland’s web sites, all the Scandinavian websites, the German web sites and even the Indonesian Ducati Owners Club’s web site. Some of the websites were official Ducati web sites, some were consumer run, some were technique oriented, some were model specific, some were touring oriented and some were racing oriented. It was great fun to read but:

I only found one post covering gasohol and that was a post in UK Monster Owners club.

It was written by a Monsterman and signed by a Jerry and it was telling about the problem to drive his Ducati M750 in Thailand since the factory has forbidden him to use Gasohol, his wife’s Rebel 250 was destroyed by Gasohol and now even his car disliked the Gasohol….

Where the hell do you have the breaking news about the American developments.

Were are the postings from angry American owners whose cars and other vehicles also have problems with Gasohol.


Also your info about US having same chip as EU may be wrong. I found on one site a thread about exporting Ducatis from Europe to US. In this thread they say, that you have to change the chip to a general US model or a Californian model before you are allowed to enter the country. I don’t know who is right!!!

I can to continue blaming You, maybe it is better You get all shit at the same time. Last week you said twice that Thai consumers had found Gasohol less economical and had experience of water separation. In your later post you mentioned Bangkok Post and Nation as your source. For your “overall” consumer experience you didn’t tell your source. Normally it is your neighbor.

So I used last weekend (very rainy no motor biking) reading Bangkok Post and Nation from last week and surfing some Thai internet sites. I found no negative comments about Gasohol in the newspapers, only articles about the introduction of E85 in Thailand and some articles about Toyota and E 85 as well as some comment about a meeting between a minister and some car manufacturers. The Internet surfing only gave me one good source of information from this year. (many others very old or very small sample) That was Thai Visa Forum with two threads about Gasohol. The result was: 49 posts total, 25 no expressed opinion, 16 positive to Gasohol and 8 negative…

So I ask You frankly, do You just make up Your stories in order to get a “scoope” at this board or do you have some secret sources like “deep throat”…..

Still your friend

HIKO
 

ray23

Ol'Timer
Oct 14, 2005
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One of things that came out was the content of water in fuel What are the fule additives available locally and how often should use them So far I have repaired three fuel tanks from this.
 

HIKO

Ol'Timer
Nov 7, 2005
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HI

If you have used normal gasoline for a long time it is very possible that you have water in the tank, consisting of small water balls and "making his home" in the bottom of your tank and some times going into the carb ending up in the bottom of the carb, from where it can normally be removed by opening the bottom screw. The water in the tank will rust your tank from the inside, you can see how the "colour" of your tank in the bottom is "blossoming" making the paint together with some rust go off. If this happens on the road a temporary fix is using "soap" That will make you get home if you get a leak. An permanent fix means grinding the tank and using lead ( or actually the shiny version I forget the name, Tenn in Swedish) to seal it.

If you know that you have water in the tank and are scared of using Gasohol buy some ethanol and pure it into the tank that will absorb the water. A tank full of Gasohol will do the same job. You can also empty the water from the tank physically by removing the tank but it will take some time.

I know that this answer can be find also in my long posts from before, they are heavy to read but they do contain information based on facts. Try to read them and tell me if you think I'm wrong. In that way we can get better and better information on this site.

HIKO
 

ray23

Ol'Timer
Oct 14, 2005
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Hiko Thanks but I don't have a clue. The Thais have been very adapt at the repairs many times matching up paint in the process. Actually have saved some very expensive are work in the processs.

Ethonal is throwing me I have idea how to find that here.

Would a say a few liters of Gasohol do the same thing, My bike is eight years old so a steady diet of Gasohol probably is not a good idea.
 

monsterman

Ol'Timer
Oct 17, 2006
1,830
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ray the ethanol is in the gasohol fuel its 10% of the mix,

Epoxy product like POR15 will seal the interior of the tank against rusting.
 

Hoghead

Ol'Timer
Feb 5, 2007
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In Canada we used methyl hydrate in the winter to absorb water in gasoline.

POR-15 is great stuff but not for a tank sealing. The POR company makes a tank sealant kit that contains stripper, primer/etcher, and sealant goop. Or you can just buy the sealant goop if feeling risky.

Their bery helpfuil agent in BKK is K. Zen at 082 248 3519
 

HIKO

Ol'Timer
Nov 7, 2005
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ray23 wrote: Hiko Thanks but I don't have a clue. The Thais have been very adapt at the repairs many times matching up paint in the process. Actually have saved some very expensive are work in the processearear.

Ethonal is throwing me I have idea how to find that here.

Would a say a few liters of Gasohol do the same thing, My bike is eight years old so a steady diet of Gasohol probably is not a good idea.
Yes Ray

I think a tank full of Gasohol will do it, I mean to take away the water in your tank. The rust or a rust defect in your tank is a different thing. I think you can use Gasohol in your bike in the future also. Most manufacturers have given green light to Gasohol (alcohol less than 10% in the blend as Monsterman correctly posted) for bikes starting from the 1980's. The alcohol in Gasohol is Ethyl Alcohol which is the same alcohol you drink ( I assume...) just a little stronger and cleaner. 99,5%. The small amount of alcohol in the gasoline blend will mix with the water in your tank and will burn it together with the gasohol. Very easy and if you had read my earlier posts on this thread and an earlier with the name Gasohol (or something like it) it would have been clear to you....Anyhow if you want to use some additives to clear the problem you can use stuff like methan hydrate proposed by Hogshead. Methan hydrate chemically is a solid crystall derived from methan gas under the pressure of ice blocks. Probably the thing they sell i Canada is methanol, (Methanydrate is sometimes called methanol) an alcohol similar to ethyl alcohol and it will take away the water in your tank. You can find plenty of similar products in countries with cold climate where water in the tank is a daily problem. Nowadays they have solved the problem by adding Ethanol into the gasoline thus selling Gasohol or lower blends a likes. If you have regular problems with water in the tank, use Gasohol and you will get rid of those problems.

Then if you already have a rust problem in your tank Gasohol will not fix that. The only durable solution to fix that is to take away the paint and rust from the affected area and clean it so you have a shiny metal surface. Then you put a tin coat on the former rusty area and then you are left with some paintwork to do. The tin will cover the small rust holes in the metal thus stopping the leaking. Applying the coat of tin is a a job for a specialist, don't try to do it yourself. Instead of applying the tin you can probably use some epoxy glues, but I'm old fashioned and trust the tin more.

HIKO
 

BignTall

Ol'Timer
Oct 12, 2005
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Gents,

I've avoided Gasahol in all my bikes, all with 11:1 compression ratios.

Just got back from four days off off roading around northern Thailand. 95 gasoline is getting increasingly difficult to find. I resorted to 91 gasoline when 95 was not available.

In the jungle northwest of Pai I came across fuel drums in the jungle to refuel at. They were out of gasoline and only had 95 Gasahol :shock: . I needed additional gas to make it out of the jungle. I had a lump in my throat as I topped off with 95 Gasahol :( . My precious KTM 525 (with a 570 big bore and high lift race cam) may be at risk I worried.

I took off into the jungle gingerly on the throttle, listening intently for any noises, pinging, detonation, etc. Everything sounded ok???? Then I noticed it was running a bit crisper. Loh and behold it was running magically. The higher octane had given back the snap in the motor. Bottom line in my experience on this KTM after 1000 KM's, Multiple fill ups using 95 and 91 gasoline and 95 gasahol, the 95 Gasahol ran better than 91 gasoline, and I noticed no significant difference in performance when topping up with 95 Gasoline. I actually felt the Gasahol provided a slight bit more power, however the difference was slight, and it was a subjective test. Without a dyno there is no concrete data to prove my seat of the pants.

I don't know the long term effects of utilizing the gasahol in my bike but in regards to power loss, on my carbed 2006 KTM I noticed no power loss utilizing Gasohol 95.

I'm now looking for carb diagrams to order all the rubber bits inside my carb as I intend on using the Gasahol 95 if 95 gasoline is unavailable.

Keep in mind if your compression ratios are milder than mine regular 91 gasoline is a decent option.

Best of luck.
 

Dougal

Ol'Timer
Dec 18, 2007
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Thanks Big & Tall.

I'm not nearly as technical as you guys and your post neatly puts down my experiences as well.

I run a 2003 Yamaha Fazer and it reacted almost identically to your description.
 

monsterman

Ol'Timer
Oct 17, 2006
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Thats interesting Big and Tall ,Its good news that your machines seem to run well on Gasohol,, keeping an eye on the rubber fuel system parts will ensure no problems.
 

BignTall

Ol'Timer
Oct 12, 2005
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Its only one bike I've tested it in, not the other three.

Its at best nerve-racking though to have to go to the hassle of ordering obscure carb parts that normally one would never worry about. Lets hope that the rubber parts hold out until I'm back in the states next year.

Talked to HondaHonkey and he said his Kawasaki ZX-10 sportbike ran fine on a tankfull of 95 he tried.

Just a few more data points to add to the confusion.

Best of luck gents.
 

dirthonk

Ol'Timer
Jun 21, 2006
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yep the kwakattack definitely ran crisper on gasohol 95 than 95 regular. next will be trying it in the crf.
 

HIKO

Ol'Timer
Nov 7, 2005
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Oh it is so nice to hear that also other persons have changed to Gasohol and nothing happens…

It is quite strange that people are so scare of trying Gasohol and this must be the result of all the rumors and myths that have surfaced causing confusion among the consumers, maybe a result of a very poorly managed introduction of Gasohol in Thailand and the lack of marketing. Even the people selling the stuff don’t know anything and they are a main source of the rumors.

Pls keep in mind that “the good old 95 Gasoline” used MTBE or ETBE to get the high octane. These are both ethers derived from methanol or ethanol. MTBE can be used as high as 15%.. So what is the big difference? Pure alcohol or some complex alcohol based ether in your tank????

Mr. Reynolds is an American expert and consult in the areas of the petroleum industry that occur downstream of the refinery, particularly oxygenated fuels and logistics. He has 25 years behind him in the business. The Hawaiian state used him as an expert when they made Gasohol mandatory in 2006. He kept several seminars for different target groups about the effect of Gasohol for the Hawaians. He has also published several papers. Below I partly quote him.

Metal corrosion. Car manufacturers have experience of alcohol as fuel for decades and the problems are solved already then, but due to the widespread use of Gasohol now, some of he old questions resurfaces. Anyhow car manufacturers have no concern about corrosion provided that the Gasohol contains effective corrosion inhibitors at the proper treatment level. Ethanol in Gasohol should contain corrosion inhibitors according to guidelines set by the authorities. (This I still have to check with PTT that Thailand use the same standards as USA) Due to these controls and the addition of corrosion inhibitors, you should not encounter ethanol-related metal corrosion problems .

Plastic and rubber deterioration. Elastomer (plastic and rubberlike components) compatibility is more difficult to generalize. First of all the gasoline component in Gasohol already contains a number of ingredients that can have an effect on elastomer swelling and deterioration. For instance, aromatics, such as benzene, toluene, and xylene (all gasoline components), have been shown to have detrimental effects on some fuel system elastomers. Gasolines sold today have a higher level of aromatics than those sold prior to the 1980s. The addition of alcohols or ethers to gasoline can also cause swelling in fuel system elastomers. Swelling can be severe with methanol, but relatively insignificant with other alcohols. Ten percent volume ethanol contributes less swelling than the amount of additional aromatics needed to obtain the same increase in octane number. In other words “The good old 95 gasoline” is more harmful to rubber than Gasohol. While all auto manufacturers warrant the use of 10 percent ethanol blends, their upgrading of fuel systems occurred at different times. In general, 1980 and later model years should not experience problems with 10 percent ethanol blends. Fuel systems in the 1975 to 1980 model years were upgraded, but not to the same extent as later models. Pre-1975 models may have fuel system components that are sensitive to high aromatic gasolines, alcohols and ethers. Specific documentation of the effect fuel components have on older fuel system parts is often lacking. However, if these systems have handled the aggressive gasoline components in the unleaded gasolines made since the 1980s, they should encounter no problems handling ethanol.

Engine Performance Since gasoline ethanol blends must meet the same requirements as other gasolines, consumers should notice no difference in vehicle performance if their car is in a proper state of tune.

Fuel Economy The energy content of ethanol is less than that of the gasoline to which it is added. This mean that the energy value in Gasohol is 3.1 % less 100% Gasoline. Since all power from the engine cannot be transferred to the wheels the 3.1% impact decreases and the Gasohol impact is usually less than 3%. These are, of course, generalities based on averages. Some vehicles have actually shown fuel economy improvements while others have shown slightly greater fuel economy penalties.

So how long time more will we see these “revered old gits and biker legends” (no name mentioned) postponing their executions, driving around Thailand like “chicken chasers” looking for that last Gasoline 95 Outpost.

HIKO
:D
 

BignTall

Ol'Timer
Oct 12, 2005
649
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Hiko,

A releif to hear from one source that the rubber and/or plastic components in the fuel system are better off with gasahol than traditional unleaded gasoline. Thank you for your post. Lets hope this pans out in reality.
 

Peter Hooper

Ol'Timer
Aug 3, 2004
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Hi Hiko,
You wrote; An permanent fix means grinding the tank and using lead ( or actually the shiny version I forget the name, Tenn in Swedish) to seal it.

Do you mean Solder ? 60% tin 40% lead, available in sticks or resin core coils for electrical work. When you put solder on the tip of the iron so it makes good contact we call that "tinning the iron" which is similar to your Swedish word
Cheers,
Peter